Thanks on behalf of my kids

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lostpict
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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by lostpict » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:53 pm

Lead Minis were banned AND Then unbanned once someone bothered to ask the scientific community. Turns out solid metallic lead is non-toxic; however, lead vapor and lead oxides are toxic (used in paint, crystal, by-product of soldering joints, etc.). I was working as a metallurgical engineer back when this happened and spent most of the 80s and 90s dealing with removal of lead (& other bad actors) from electronics (where toxicity is an issue), but toy soldiers were collateral damage. That killed a bunch of smaller miniatures companies and drove up mini prices for the rest including making it hard to do conversions. In my view, I fully understand being cautious with kids, but unless some negative data on dwarvenite is available extreme caution is warranted wrt to questioning it's safety or we could find dwarvenite being treated like lead kryponite.
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Little Men blog - sfdfsfd.wordpress.com

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kitenerd
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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by kitenerd » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:30 pm

Mydienon - congratulations on your relatively new parenthood! I remember well those days of worrying about everything... in the end kids are incredibly resilient and it takes a lifetime of concerted effort to really screw them up. Sure, you'll make mistakes... but go easy on yourself. Even if you exhaust yourself trying to be perfect, you will still fail. They will eat dirt, cat food and worms when you are not looking. They will chew the wood on the edge of the crib (my god what kind of finish was on there.. that can't be good for them!). Do the best you can and remember the old "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" Turns out to be true. A certain amount of exposure to germs and bacteria help build our immune systems. To sterile an environment and we don't develop the ability to defend ourselves.

In short - relax, stop worrying and enjoy the kids while they are cute and young - soon enough they will be back talking and telling you how dreadfully uncool you are!
"Miniatures?, sure sign of a petty mind!" - 'The Women' 1939

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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by Mydienon » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:10 am

Harneloot wrote:Our children our precious, but I hardly think that Dwarvenite is even on the first page of the list of things we should protect them from.
I agree. There are far, far more dangerous things out there than Dwarvenite, or even lead miniatures. I know people who have eaten pencil lead and mercury as children, and they're now fine and healthy adults (even though I'm not entirely convinced, the doctors do say so). And yes, as you pointed out, my children will get exposed to many things some scientists say is toxic, and a lot of that I have little or no control over.

As I said, it's my paranoia. I'm a relatively new parent though -- I'm told my paranoia will fade in time. And yes, eventually I will let my children play with Dwarvenite. I don't know what age, though. Is 2 years old too young? 3? Maybe 4 or 5, or whenever they're old enough to really start playing some simple roleplaying games? Should I wait until 8 years old, which is when I first started playing AD&D and using lead miniatures?

I don't believe there is one "right age" for all children. I'll wait and see, and allow it when I feel comfortable with the idea. But my choice shouldn't affect anyone else. I love seeing the pictures of Dwarvenite creations by children, and I'm glad people are enjoying the experience of playing with their children using Dwarvenite -- those memories will last a lifetime (as will the Dwarvenite)!

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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by arsthein » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:09 am

X"DDD you should sue yourself ;D

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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by Law » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:03 am

Mydienon wrote:
jchunick wrote:Could someone explain to me the significance of having your kids wash their hands after playing with Dwarvenite?... I'm failing to understand the perceived risks. Maybe if someone could spell out clearly what concerns are going through their head, that would help. Thanks.

If anyone feels this is starting to derail the thread then we can move it elsewhere.
Parental paranoia. And I think it was me that derailed the thread. Sorry.

There are many resources online about health risks of PVC, but as I said, many are biased. For some Government resources, here's the US National Library of Medicine http://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version ... .php?id=84, the US Environmental Protection Agency http://www3.epa.gov/airtoxics/hlthef/vinylchl.html, the US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=280&tid=51, and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission https://www.productsafety.gov.au/conten ... mId/972486.

These sources will tell you the risks are minimal, but that there are risks. Some other supposedly independent organizations claim the risks are much greater (or much less), depending who pays their bills I guess.

As a relatively new parent, and not knowing the specific ingredients in Dwarvenite, and knowing they haven't specifically been tested/approved for use as children's toys, and knowing they're manufactured in China, all makes me want to be cautious.

But that's just me. I'm not saying anyone else should do the same -- and even I might change my mind in a few years, as I wrote before. I actually figured everyone else knew the potential risks, and had decided they were so minimal that they didn't matter (there was a similar discussion during KS3 about this too, where I also mentioned my concerns).

I believe there are far greater risks to children in the world than a little Dwarvenite exposure, and the act of playing with your children is probably a far greater benefit than any potential health risk. For me personally though, I'll buy some nice wooden blocks to make castles with my children, and save the Dwarvenite for when they're a little older.
I appreciate the comment, the links, and the discussion. I haven't personally been worried about my kids' interacting with PVC (there are no lead minis in my collection, not since the 1980's). But my kids are also old enough that they're past the "put everything in their mouth" phase. My son just turned 8 and my daughter is 5, will be 6 in May. They're both old enough that I trust that any possible harm they get from just handling the material will be fine so long as they wash up.

If anything in CBS is dangerous for kids, it's the magnets -- I don't let my kids play with CBS as much as I let them handle the KS1 and 2 pieces, and when they DO play with CBS, I take away all the magnets. They're good kids and, like I said, they're past the "put it in your mouth" phase. But still. It's not worth it.

I doubt DF would start marketing this stuff to kids, but you raise a good point. Once you enter that arena, you subject yourself to a great deal of government regulation and possible headaches including litigation. It's a pretty big downside.

Ah well. For now, it'll be an elite club. Gamers and their kids who are lucky enough to have the coolest castles in town.

(Me, I played with lead minis all the time as a teenager, and I turned out -- oh, wait, crap, I'm a lawyer. DAMMIT!)

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arsthein
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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by arsthein » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:52 am

Law wrote:Do you guys know how much fun this stuff is for kids?
Hooooly Mjölnir dude... I never thought of that... the story of your kids is freakin' awesome! so happy that experience even exists even if I don't know your children, I don't know, may be I feel happy for a better happyness / suckness ratio in the world.

To think, If I could have played as a little kid with Game Tiles It would have blown my mind hard.

...but I would probably have ended up a damned freak...

...wait...

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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by Harneloot » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:19 am

Mydienon wrote:I actually figured everyone else knew the potential risks,
Artificial colors & flavors, preservatives, pesticides, outgassing of particle board and carpeting, flame retardants on mattresses, pillow and pajamas etc....please tell me we are not going to all now become fearful of having our children play with Gametiles when we expose them to all sorts of stuff everyday (even offering it to them in their food or putting them on it all night to sleep) that MAY be hazardous to their health.

Our children our precious, but I hardly think that Dwarvenite is even on the first page of the list of things we should protect them from.

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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by Mydienon » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:59 pm

jchunick wrote:Could someone explain to me the significance of having your kids wash their hands after playing with Dwarvenite?... I'm failing to understand the perceived risks. Maybe if someone could spell out clearly what concerns are going through their head, that would help. Thanks.

If anyone feels this is starting to derail the thread then we can move it elsewhere.
Parental paranoia. And I think it was me that derailed the thread. Sorry.

There are many resources online about health risks of PVC, but as I said, many are biased. For some Government resources, here's the US National Library of Medicine http://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version ... .php?id=84, the US Environmental Protection Agency http://www3.epa.gov/airtoxics/hlthef/vinylchl.html, the US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=280&tid=51, and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission https://www.productsafety.gov.au/conten ... mId/972486.

These sources will tell you the risks are minimal, but that there are risks. Some other supposedly independent organizations claim the risks are much greater (or much less), depending who pays their bills I guess.

As a relatively new parent, and not knowing the specific ingredients in Dwarvenite, and knowing they haven't specifically been tested/approved for use as children's toys, and knowing they're manufactured in China, all makes me want to be cautious.

But that's just me. I'm not saying anyone else should do the same -- and even I might change my mind in a few years, as I wrote before. I actually figured everyone else knew the potential risks, and had decided they were so minimal that they didn't matter (there was a similar discussion during KS3 about this too, where I also mentioned my concerns).

I believe there are far greater risks to children in the world than a little Dwarvenite exposure, and the act of playing with your children is probably a far greater benefit than any potential health risk. For me personally though, I'll buy some nice wooden blocks to make castles with my children, and save the Dwarvenite for when they're a little older.

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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by Saxon1974 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:46 pm

jchunick wrote:
Saxon1974 wrote:This concerns me a bit to be honest. Don't like the thought of them being potentially harmful.

Maybe Dwarven Forge staff can weigh in? I I'll start another thread though.
Yeah, it's probably time to start another thread. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know what's in something, but keep in mind that things are often blown out of proportion, especially how toxic something is (like 'organic' I now hate the word toxic since it's been co-opted by all sorts of alt. health people.)
Agree. Started another thread in the ask DF section.

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Re: Thanks on behalf of my kids

Post by jchunick » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:40 pm

Saxon1974 wrote:This concerns me a bit to be honest. Don't like the thought of them being potentially harmful.

Maybe Dwarven Forge staff can weigh in? I I'll start another thread though.
Yeah, it's probably time to start another thread. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know what's in something, but keep in mind that things are often blown out of proportion, especially how toxic something is (like 'organic' I now hate the word toxic since it's been co-opted by all sorts of alt. health people.)
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