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MyLordVoid
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Post by MyLordVoid » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:06 am

Law,

As to the WizKids "3D-Dungeon" it was Actually Pretty Nifty in Some Ways, but Not any where Near as Nice as DF, Like the Difference between the Graphics in Wolfenstien 3-D and Unreal... Totaly Different Feeling, Especially Since Every Floor Piece has a Trap Turn Key so you Never Get a Nice Seemless Floor... (Not that DF is Seemless)... But the Illusion is Much Better...

In Any Event Although I Do Not really want to See WotC do Dungeons, I Would Love For them to do Accessories...

Ghenghis Ska
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Post by Ghenghis Ska » Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:01 pm


The majority of gamers seem pretty indifferent to terrain.
L


Yeah, I get that from my group pretty much also. They sort of like it, but consider it a hastle to set up and take down.

Yeah, up until really about a year and a half ago i was just like that, for D&D i could really care less about "terrain" be it odd bits of fruniture in a room, a bush outside, or what not, the chessex battle map was fine.

Before that we had a metal and plastic thing called DungeonWorks, that had little walls you could set up, and take down, and that was the extent of terrain that was in a 3rd dimmension i had ever used, and that was ok. But i just never got into terrain, i might draw a few thing extra on the mat, but that was about it.

Then D&D minis came along for my D&D game wow, it could finally get a lot of minis with out killing myself painting, and they just looked so good straight out of the box with no prep work it got me thinking (yes many people, even me could most likely do paint jobs better than many of the D&D minis (and i suck), and none have those killer paint jobs everyone on places like CmoN do, but i don't need a work of art for every mini, not even most of them so the look fine to me), we are going 3d as is what else can we do.

I started making some terrain, pulled out old toys like Hero Quest etc to get the book cases, bought some animal packs from Discovry that had trees adn rocks, and started to get some really cheap scenery/terrian, mostly out door stuff becuase to me at that point was the thing that needed the most in our games. When ever we had random encounters we just had a Mat with grids on it, i wanted to hide behind bushes to get hiding for Sneak Attacks, cover, concelment etc. The lack of it in the game i was a player drove me to make it for my game, so that maybe the DM for that group i played in would use it to.

What hooked me on Terrain was when in my game one of the Players made an ingenious use of a spell (stone shape) and a big boulder on the mat to create a wall, to give the entire party cover from the ranged attacks comming there way. If that had not been out there he most likely never would have done anything like that. The terrain gave the game such an added dimension and depth i couldn't think of playing with out it anymore, the tactics for combat were stagering when you had an environment to work in.

But unfortunitly my DM still almost never uses terrain or scenery, he is really to lazy to put it up and take it down...

oh well i still try to push it as a good thing becuase of the options it opens up, even if you don't go as far as buying things like Dwarven Forge, and i hadn't until the Sci-Fi came out, I couldn't run the SW minis in my RPG with out good terrain. :)

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Post by willypold » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:49 pm

Also, one should keep in mind that when you talk about terrain with most gamers they almost always think of hills, ruins, clumps of trees and anything else that should go into the open, because they are not playing in dungeons with their armies of hundreds of figures.

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Post by brvheart » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:39 pm


The majority of gamers seem pretty indifferent to terrain.
L


Yeah, I get that from my group pretty much also. They sort of like it, but consider it a hastle to set up and take down.

Law
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Post by Law » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:33 pm


The thing I'd really be concerned about if I were DF is the possibility of WoTC getting into the terrain & accessories segment and pricing DF right out of the market. That's pretty much what happened with DF's miniature lines.

If WoTC decided to come up with a DF-esque modular dungeon line, and make it not as nice but much cheaper than DF, the DF folks would be in some deep doo-doo. With WoTC being a much larger company, and having the ability to absorb more short-term losses than DF, they could put a hurting on DF but quick.



Possible, but look at this: Wizkids made a cheap modular dungeon set, 3-D Dungeon tiles (Tom has a profile of them on his page, as does a guy named Mitch who runs a site at www.terrainosaur.com) They were nice, they were basic, they were cheap. They do not appear to have sold at ALL.

The majority of gamers seem pretty indifferent to terrain. The market is customer-driven, and that's why there are tons of minis companies out there and a wealth of options in minis, but almost nothing in terrain. From what I've seen online, the biggest terrain companies seem to be DF and Hirst Arts -- most of the time, when I see terrain, it's one of these two. That means DF is the biggest name in prebuilt terrain. (By "Terrain" I mean creating the rooms and passages, not just accessories like furniture or a door etc. -- most companies like Grendel that make accessories don't make anything like the full-fledged terrain we're talking about here)

So I wonder if WOTC would even WANT to try making some cheaper version of Master Maze.

But I'm with you guys, I'm a DF fan all the way. I love Hirst Arts, too, and I pick up Grendel pieces and I get a little of everything. But the second a DF product hits the market, I'm there.

L

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Post by Yukon Cornelius » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:12 pm

I'd be all over both of those sets if they ever came to be.

Oh, who am I kidding? If DF makes it, I'm going to buy it, whatever it is. They could make a Strawberry Shortcake Cupcake Land set and I'd buy at least 4.

Addicted! :lol:

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Post by brvheart » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:17 am

Hey, I like this much better! :D

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Post by Guest » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:01 pm


As long as it meshes seemlessly with the current DF lines, I don't see how it could be a bad thing. The only way it could such would be if it was very specific to one game setting, and I don't think that's the case.


The simplist way to respond to you MM, is to say that we just have differing experiences and thereby knowledge.
I have stated my concerns and am not looking to rise to your invitation at this time.
Honestly, I would really hate to be able to say, "I warned you all." one day, okay?

Huh? I wasn't baiting you RF. Just stating I think these sets will do okay with the rest of the lines.

I am surprised, but pleased with how reasonable your responses to L and myself have been here.
Keep up the good work MM.

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Post by MrMorden » Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:07 pm



Still, I suspect that the number one thing DF could do to draw in customers would be to lower the price. I think the recent approach to $50 sets instead of $100 is a part of that -- to make the "starter" cost less and reduce the sticker shock of "That's cool, but $109?!?!" But still, I know on the SWM forum a lot of people responded to me by saying "That looks great, but to get enough to play on, you'd have to spend a lot."

I have no idea how they could reduce the price, so this may be a no-win situation.

I'm curious about one thing, RF -- it seems like you're suggesting that if DF were ever to grow past a certain point, they'd garner GW's attention and get swallowed up/destroyed. Do you think there's any plan DF could put in place to grow and not be threatened by The Beast?

L


The thing I'd really be concerned about if I were DF is the possibility of WoTC getting into the terrain & accessories segment and pricing DF right out of the market. That's pretty much what happened with DF's miniature lines.

If WoTC decided to come up with a DF-esque modular dungeon line, and make it not as nice but much cheaper than DF, the DF folks would be in some deep doo-doo. With WoTC being a much larger company, and having the ability to absorb more short-term losses than DF, they could put a hurting on DF but quick.

If I were DF's management, I'd be seriously thinking about reducing the cost of the product, as others in this thread have mentioned. I might even consider a new series of "budget" lines, perhaps made of softer plastic rather than resin, with a little sloppier paintwork and detail. A set the size of a room & passage set selling for $30 to $50 would sell like hotcakes. The older, nicer pieces could be remarketed as the "Dwarven Forge Pro" line, and kept in production. DF could even use the same molds, but use lesser plastics to cast them and just not paint every single detail, but instead paint the stonework about the same quality as the D&D Minis Stone Golem.

Until these products become ubiquitous at gaming tables, DF is going to be in a tenuous position financially. They should work to make their products appeal to a larger spectrum of gamers, and that means they must be cheaper and easier to get a hold of.

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Post by MrMorden » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:52 am


As long as it meshes seemlessly with the current DF lines, I don't see how it could be a bad thing. The only way it could such would be if it was very specific to one game setting, and I don't think that's the case.


The simplist way to respond to you MM, is to say that we just have differing experiences and thereby knowledge.
I have stated my concerns and am not looking to rise to your invitation at this time.
Honestly, I would really hate to be able to say, "I warned you all." one day, okay?

Huh? I wasn't baiting you RF. Just stating I think these sets will do okay with the rest of the lines.

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