Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

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Talistran
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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by Talistran » Sun May 26, 2019 7:34 pm

Those human and or elf miniatures of theirs do seem to match up a lot better than I thought they would.

I wonder about the orcs though, although to be honest I don't mind the orcs being a little bit bigger. I'm very interested in the worg riders as well

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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by unclebilly » Sat May 25, 2019 9:56 pm

They have posted some pictures of the scale of these.

Image

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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by GardenDM » Thu May 23, 2019 10:13 am

Rhizom wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:50 am
I fully agree with @AnimeSensei. Furthermore, of course, the problem is not nudity per se. It is not the human view on nudity, but the stereotypic male gaze on nudity that informs these sculpts.

The male minis are made for a stereotypic male to play with, the female minis are made for a stereotypic male to gaze at. That is — in my eyes — the sexism, not the nudity.

Of course, there are woman who like these female minis and who want to play with them or cosplay them. This is fine — while of course this also is influenced by a social stereotype. Not only men’s gaze is influenced by stereotypes, women’s gaze is as well. Anyway, my problem is not that women would not like these minis, but the underlying structure that is reproduced, here without reflecting it.
Well said. There's room for a bit of everything in this world, but no need to perpetuate this limited view on body and nudity. There are so many ways to represent the human form and simply adding variety to the approach would eliminate most objections to it in this context.

Edit to add: Applying this single viewpoint on nudity and human form (as described well by others and rampant in this campaign) isn't just "dumb", it's also boring and lazy.

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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by Rhizom » Thu May 23, 2019 2:50 am

I fully agree with @AnimeSensei. Furthermore, of course, the problem is not nudity per se. It is not the human view on nudity, but the stereotypic male gaze on nudity that informs these sculpts.

The male minis are made for a stereotypic male to play with, the female minis are made for a stereotypic male to gaze at. That is — in my eyes — the sexism, not the nudity.

Of course, there are woman who like these female minis and who want to play with them or cosplay them. This is fine — while of course this also is influenced by a social stereotype. Not only men’s gaze is influenced by stereotypes, women’s gaze is as well. Anyway, my problem is not that women would not like these minis, but the underlying structure that is reproduced, here without reflecting it.
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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by Rabbit Burner » Wed May 22, 2019 8:32 am

All this talk of female sexism and nudity made us go back and have another look .... fnarr fnarr

Ok maybe that’s a bit weird coming from a rabbit, but there is, in fact, a real world.

We have collected a bunch of female minis over the years, many inspired by Elmore and Caldwell, we fully intend to get some of GWs plastic Sisters of Battle when they come out.

We want our female warriors to look like warriors, so that involves armour etc (basically clothes ;)) but we also want them to look like women.

We backed Raging Heroes TGG2 (Toughest Girls of the Galaxy) KS a few years back, and the creators were accused of sexism due to armoured female warriors having high heeled boots, saying it was sexist because it was unrealistic to fight in heels.

But its also unrealistic to be fighting with winged jetpacks and swords. As pointed out we want our women warriors to look like women, so that means busts, shapely legs and thin waists. Which of course are seen as sexist stereotypes, which in the real world are.

But this is not the real world it is a fantasy world and in that world men are ripped Greek gods wielding swords bigger than they are.

Have to point out that Raging Heroes minis are all female and most follow the line of amazon in armour wielding pistols or swords, they push the line with their Lust Elves line, basically sensuous 'slaanesh' space elves wanting your soul. The sculpts are amazing but their is a lot of elf flesh on show. Though not all their minis are Amazonian shapes, just most ;)

But there lines of taste and they are in the eye of the beholder*.

We are all for powerful female minis in tabletop and we think that those will attract more women into the hobby. Powerfull female minis do not have to look like they have just stepped out of the gym onto the catwalk, it is however easier to recognise them as female and as stated previously match the men with their Greek godlike physiques

Its really a minefield of moral propaganda, in the end you make your own decision.

As for this KS some sculpts push the limit of our tastes, but it is worth remembering that a fantasy world is basically pre gunpowder /medieval Europe with magic and dragons, there was a lot of sexism in those days, and some minis portray that with minis of ladys of the night.

What happens when you compare a sculpt of a Red Sonja bikini chailmail clad female warrior and one of a Lady of the night showing her wares to potential customers. One is unrealistically showing the men how to slay a dragon the other is realistically making a living.

We know which one we prefer our adult daughter to cosplay ;)

This post has rambled on a bit - for that we apologise.

*if anyone finds that beholder feel free to ask it where the lines of taste are ;)
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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by kodiakbear » Wed May 22, 2019 2:46 am

Nudity does not bother me either, and I agree a good artist who paints the mother in The Future Prince of Darkness with stretch marks will have shown the human body as a beautiful expression of art.

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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by Talistran » Tue May 21, 2019 10:31 pm

I'm in on this.

The company has a great track record of fulfilling regular, website orders for over a decade. I have purchased a bunch of their 60mm military figures for years.

I LOVE the warg riders. And the orc camp. MAYBE the villagers too. Oh, and the elves! The rest we'll wait and see when it goes to retail. Again, they do retail well.

As to the whole modesty / sexism thing... having not grown up in the United States, nudity doesn't bother me. Most of the men and women in my life see the human body as an expression of art and sex as part of that art form. My wife isn't bothered by these photos, nor my 23 year old daughter that I showed them to. In fact my daughter asked if she could use the "amazon" for a character miniature in a future campaign. I think the Prince of Darkness mini will make a great NPC/BBEG character in a future campaign too.

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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by AnimeSensei » Tue May 21, 2019 2:33 pm

I have no problem with minis looking attractive, but I don't like gratuitous nudity or selling with sex. I don't buy metal minis, but I think Bombshell Babes does a good job at toeing that line. Junk Robot's kickstarters, Seven Statues of Rome, and this one are good examples of crossing that line for me.

While the 80's chainmail bikinis were fun when you look at it through a teenage boy's eyes (assuming a guy here, not a girl), once you mature, have a girlfriend/wife/kids and look at them again, it's hard to explain to them why the girl has no clothes on. Typically (and is the case with this KS) the guys have their clothes on but the girls don't, and it bugs me.

I feel it's kept girls out of the D&D environment for decades and due to changes in artwork (and minis), we're just starting to get girls into the hobby in a more mainstream level. Thank goodness for shows like Critical Role that show girls that D&D can be fun and doesn't have to be sexist tropes. Projects that treat women as solely a form to be looked at (who cares if the armor doesn't make sense, she looks hot!" :? ) cause us to take a step backwards as a RPG community.

Stepping off my soapbox.

Still not a backer. I don't see this one fulfilling in full or on-time, not a fan of the scale, and not a fan of how the women are portrayed. I do like the terrain options.
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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by kodiakbear » Sun May 19, 2019 12:06 pm

Rhizom wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 10:41 am
I think, the female minis are quite sexist.
I agree, when I looked at the KS page I realized that they had both kinds of 13 year old FANTASY.

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Re: Orc Camp in First Legion kickstarter

Post by Rhizom » Sun May 19, 2019 10:41 am

dice4hire wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:28 am
Wow, that is an insane amount of stuff for one kickstarter. Haven't they heard of fulfillment hell?
Yep. I must say I have a lot of doubt that they can fulfill this in time — or ever.

Won’t back it for that reason, and because I think, the female minis are quite sexist.
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