The future of terrain and DF

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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:44 am

AnimeSensei wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:39 pm
galladoria games wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:13 pm

...
Thank you for the excellent insight into your industry! Very well said!
What AS said :)
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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by AnimeSensei » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:39 pm

galladoria games wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:13 pm
I see all of the 3d dungeon tile STL offerings out there and i certainly think it is perceived value. From my perspective lets say you are a person that has invested in a home FDM or Resin printer and want to justify it by printing out mass dungeon tiles.

First most of the STL files out there are of medium quality and detail and this is by design, not necessarily any lack of knowledge. Home printers simply can not produce the level of detail, and they should not be expected to! The makers of the home STL files understand this and produce to the spec of the machines. This makes for much happier customers because their prints work, and look as they expect them to. The prints can look fairly good on a home printer, you will get that home "3d printed look" but with some sanding and quality paint job they look nice.

Time to print a standard 50mm x 50mm dungeon tile is substantial. You can play the game of lowering the resolution of the printer to speed it up, but once again you are further degrading the quality. I have seen some people say buy more printers or send it out to be printed. This here then blows the argument about value and you will quickly start to approach the same cost as if you purchased the professional product, but with a very different quality level then a company live Dwarven Forge.

Home 3D printing can be amazing for producing those hard to find or impossible to find pieces in the retail market, to replace a full dungeon tile offering from a manufacturer for any reason beyond the novelty of saying you made it all yourself, I do not personally see it.

If you want to 3d print at the same level of detail and quality as a piece like something you see from Dwarven Forge is not realistic for most home users. Quick example we produce our model masters on a 3d system projet2500HD its a MJP printer that jets resin and wax so there is not supports and some of the highest resolution in the industry. it has a massive build volume and if we were looking to max out printing terrain for home use, we MIGHT be able to fit 12- 15 tiles in a build. The build would run for 15-18 hours and it would cost about $600 in materials. oh and the printer and a support plan is just north of $70k. Also the masters will shatter if dropped, we must be super careful with them until you have your molds, or start the process and expense all over again :) To Clarify that is cost to print on a MJP printer NOT home. Home filament is very cheap so the material cost to run a home 3d printer is very low (but what is your time worth?)

The math just doesn't add up. I heard one person say they will home 3d print one copy of each model and then make silicone molds and pressure cast their pieces. At that point it sound like they want to try and start up a small business not make large quantities of dungeon terrain for "cheap"

At the end of the day it comes down to time and what your expectations are, my guess is if you are reading this forum quality tends to be one of the most important factors for your hobby expectations, and I really don't think Dwarven Forge has anything to worry about from all these STL campaigns. They have their place in the industry just as Dwarven Forge has theirs :)
Thank you for the excellent insight into your industry! Very well said!
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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by hunter_something » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:24 pm

I agree with the last couple comments.

There's no great path to mass producing high-quality prints with a typical home 3D printing setup.

I think the STL campaigns will find the most success making weird, hard to find, interesting models that pairs well with established systems like DF. That and scatter terrain.

I, for one, would love a nice ocean-floor scene. Maybe an aboleth skeleton partially submerged in the silt?

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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by galladoria games » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:13 pm

I see all of the 3d dungeon tile STL offerings out there and i certainly think it is perceived value. From my perspective lets say you are a person that has invested in a home FDM or Resin printer and want to justify it by printing out mass dungeon tiles.

First most of the STL files out there are of medium quality and detail and this is by design, not necessarily any lack of knowledge. Home printers simply can not produce the level of detail, and they should not be expected to! The makers of the home STL files understand this and produce to the spec of the machines. This makes for much happier customers because their prints work, and look as they expect them to. The prints can look fairly good on a home printer, you will get that home "3d printed look" but with some sanding and quality paint job they look nice.

Time to print a standard 50mm x 50mm dungeon tile is substantial. You can play the game of lowering the resolution of the printer to speed it up, but once again you are further degrading the quality. I have seen some people say buy more printers or send it out to be printed. This here then blows the argument about value and you will quickly start to approach the same cost as if you purchased the professional product, but with a very different quality level then a company live Dwarven Forge.

Home 3D printing can be amazing for producing those hard to find or impossible to find pieces in the retail market, to replace a full dungeon tile offering from a manufacturer for any reason beyond the novelty of saying you made it all yourself, I do not personally see it.

If you want to 3d print at the same level of detail and quality as a piece like something you see from Dwarven Forge is not realistic for most home users. Quick example we produce our model masters on a 3d system projet2500HD its a MJP printer that jets resin and wax so there is not supports and some of the highest resolution in the industry. it has a massive build volume and if we were looking to max out printing terrain for home use, we MIGHT be able to fit 12- 15 tiles in a build. The build would run for 15-18 hours and it would cost about $600 in materials. oh and the printer and a support plan is just north of $70k. Also the masters will shatter if dropped, we must be super careful with them until you have your molds, or start the process and expense all over again :) To Clarify that is cost to print on a MJP printer NOT home. Home filament is very cheap so the material cost to run a home 3d printer is very low (but what is your time worth?)

The math just doesn't add up. I heard one person say they will home 3d print one copy of each model and then make silicone molds and pressure cast their pieces. At that point it sound like they want to try and start up a small business not make large quantities of dungeon terrain for "cheap"

At the end of the day it comes down to time and what your expectations are, my guess is if you are reading this forum quality tends to be one of the most important factors for your hobby expectations, and I really don't think Dwarven Forge has anything to worry about from all these STL campaigns. They have their place in the industry just as Dwarven Forge has theirs :)

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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by zenako » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:01 am

So as someone who does not have a 3D printer, I have a couple of questions about the concept. How much does the raw material cost to make a tile like a 3x3 wilderness tile? Or a normal 2x2 Dungeon corner tile with a floor and two walls? For unique one-off terrain, I can clearly see the appeal of a personal printer to replace what in the past would have been a hand-sculpted creation. But again, to create that special tile creates some amount of time to model the part and create the input file I am sure, or you purchase something you like from the market to print. What all this is leading towards, is there really that much of a cost-benefit, or is it more a percieved bonus of being able to create on-demand the terrain I want (and then have to paint).

Look a similar argument can be made about getting unpainted tiles/minis and then spending hours/days/weeks or forever actually painting them. Buying paints, brushes, air-brushes, bases, etc to support that hobby, as opposed to only getting prepainted / finished goods. The final total cost of materials/supplies and time probably makes those self-painted items pretty expensive in many cases. But folks get enjoyment out of doing that, and that too has value.

In the workplace, we are still working on finding viable 3D printing solutions for common parts. For complex custom parts that would be almost impossible to machine, they are viable. (At least one of the private space companies is 3D printing much of their rocket system.) For one-off demo items, they can be useful and quicker than machining. For anything, you want to mass-produce, still not really ready. For something where I would foresee wanting 40 or 100 floor tiles, for example, making a mold wins every time. Since that one mold can produce thousands and thousands of tiles its per-unit costs are reduced by a huge amount.

So for convenience and unique custom parts, sure 3D can make great sense, but for bulk terrain, don't see it as a win. Especially when you factor in durability of the casting/molding material.

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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by period3 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:32 am

I have heard the ender 5 has a few upgrades over the 3, also maybe that's it.

I don't print minis, only terrain, and supports are rarely required for that. By flawless I don't mean that every print works, more that it's always clear what the issue is and the fix is usually one or two clicks to change the infill or something. Those sorts of things are not an impediment to a novice, and not really a problem with the printer. In the same way that my paper prints don't always work (bad margin, wrong paper size, etc), I don't expect the 3d printer to magically work if theres a problem with the input.


NiandoBG wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:47 am
period3 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:14 pm
I bought an Ender 5 a few months ago and it's been flawless. I was nervous about getting into 3d printing after reading about the supposed difficulty, but I've had more problems with my paper printer than this one. 1) find something i like on thingiverse 2) download and open the file 3) click slice and save to an SD card. 4) put card in the printer and choose 'print' from the menu.

Maybe there was a time when 3d printing was for advanced hobbyists, but not anymore. My printer was <$400 CAD.
I own an Ender 3.
With this printer you have some trouble occasionally. I invest more than 60 bucks for upgrades.
Underextrusion, clocking of the nozzle and difficulties with big round molding lines can still happen. Be lucky that your printer works well but don’t be upset if this changes at some point.

The biggest limitation beside printing time and resolution are the support structures. Especially for small pieces (Minis) it is almost impossible to get rid of the support structure without damaging the miniature.

E.g. I need a bone naga for my next adventure. There is only one very expensive model from WizKids available, therefore I thought okay, let’s see what we can get 3D wise. Again only one model which is very difficult to print

https://www.shapeways.com/product/K387A ... er-profile

Btw: the fatdragon community outdoor tiles are now available at drivethroughrpg.
At least the varieties is interesting and I hope to see some ideas of it in KS 7...

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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by period3 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:18 am

Bah, why did they choose to copy THAT part too. Oh well :(, the wait continues.
AnimeSensei wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:53 am
period3 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:23 pm
NiandoBG wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:03 pm
Did anyone noticed that the 3D Printing Community is heading for “Wildlands” as well.
I saw this pictures this week. They are not yet published but shall be soon and heared rumors that fatdragon is doing a new Kickstarter campaign with “Wildlands”.
Those look pretty good to me. And 4x4 tiles?
3x3 forest tiles. Again, a copy of DF.

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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by NiandoBG » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:47 am

period3 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:14 pm
I bought an Ender 5 a few months ago and it's been flawless. I was nervous about getting into 3d printing after reading about the supposed difficulty, but I've had more problems with my paper printer than this one. 1) find something i like on thingiverse 2) download and open the file 3) click slice and save to an SD card. 4) put card in the printer and choose 'print' from the menu.

Maybe there was a time when 3d printing was for advanced hobbyists, but not anymore. My printer was <$400 CAD.
I own an Ender 3.
With this printer you have some trouble occasionally. I invest more than 60 bucks for upgrades.
Underextrusion, clocking of the nozzle and difficulties with big round molding lines can still happen. Be lucky that your printer works well but don’t be upset if this changes at some point.

The biggest limitation beside printing time and resolution are the support structures. Especially for small pieces (Minis) it is almost impossible to get rid of the support structure without damaging the miniature.

E.g. I need a bone naga for my next adventure. There is only one very expensive model from WizKids available, therefore I thought okay, let’s see what we can get 3D wise. Again only one model which is very difficult to print

https://www.shapeways.com/product/K387A ... er-profile

Btw: the fatdragon community outdoor tiles are now available at drivethroughrpg.
At least the varieties is interesting and I hope to see some ideas of it in KS 7...
more than 2,800 self painted dwarvenite pieces :)

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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by AnimeSensei » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:53 am

period3 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:23 pm
NiandoBG wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:03 pm
Did anyone noticed that the 3D Printing Community is heading for “Wildlands” as well.
I saw this pictures this week. They are not yet published but shall be soon and heared rumors that fatdragon is doing a new Kickstarter campaign with “Wildlands”.
Those look pretty good to me. And 4x4 tiles?
3x3 forest tiles. Again, a copy of DF.
100 Resin and 237 Dwarvenite Sets/Packs Owned

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Re: The future of terrain and DF

Post by period3 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:23 pm

NiandoBG wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:03 pm
Did anyone noticed that the 3D Printing Community is heading for “Wildlands” as well.
I saw this pictures this week. They are not yet published but shall be soon and heared rumors that fatdragon is doing a new Kickstarter campaign with “Wildlands”.
Those look pretty good to me. And 4x4 tiles?

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