ROTA Shame

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marcoreds
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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by marcoreds » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:17 pm

Look, let's say I am doing a charity sale.

I sell some kind of ornamental plant in the town square, the revenue will go to charity for the nearby hospital.
There is no minimum offer, you offer what you want, you get the plant.
So, you offer one dollar, and go away with 30 plants. The next day, you sell those plants in your flowers shop for 20$ each.

Is that legal?
Yes.

Is that ethical?
The plant had no minimum offer to get. You paid it what you felt like paying, that is what was asked for. You robbed nobody. There is no law (nor am I asking for one) to stop you selling those plants for 20$, or setting a cap to the price you could ask for.

So, all fine? You are a good guy? In my opinion, that would make a monster of you. But I mean, according to your points, that would be perfectly fine, not at all unethical, absolutely correct.

Fortunately, in my opinion, ethics are not math.
There is not a set of written-in-stone rules, so that if you follow them, then you are ethical, if not, you're a bad person.

You're right in saying that "if I want to figure out what is ethical, what I 'feel' is not enough".
It isn't.

It is the perception of your peers you live with that decides if it is an ethical thing or not, and in fact the perception of what is ethical or not, has changed with time.
And this is the great thing about ethics. Knowing the letter of the law, you might get away with awful acts, without ending in trouble with law.
But, if what you did comes out, nothing can spare you the contempt of the people who live in your society.

- Just to know, Lira is not our currency since 2002, we have Euro now (and 1000 Lire is about half an euro, around 50 cents :-)

Merry Christmas you too :-)

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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by GODofwar » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:45 pm

marcoreds wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:49 pm
I do see your point, that I think can be summarized as "this is just how the worlds works".
Nature works like that. That's true. But that doesn't mean that nature is "ethical".
"Stealing", in nature is the norm if you can get away with it.
As is profiting of creatures weaker than you are.
So "the way the world works" in my books is not the measure of what "ethical" should be.


I also don't think that just because some behavior is common or 'the way the world works' it is ethically justified.
What I meant by applying natural law (probably should have done what philosophy books do and referred to it as Natural Law) was that if I want to figure out what is ethical, what I 'feel' is not enough. That makes ethics completely arbitrary.
And nature is not arbitrary. Natural Laws are literally like gravity. They should be objectively true, regardless of feelings.

Glad you picked stealing as an example. Yes, creatures in the wild steal from one another. But that's because that particular kind of critter's nature cause it to do that.

Human beans are a different critter. Do you agree we are a 'social species' (meaning its our nature to collect together in societies)?

If you do then I think you will agree with my position when you reflect on it. Because:
1-Humans are social creatures.
2-Humans form societies (family/clan/tribe/nation) to survive.
3-No society can survive if it allows members to steal from one another with no consequences. Society will literally break down almost immediately if I can't harvest the fruits of my labors so I can survive.
4-Therefore 'stealing' is against man's Natural Law - because man can't survive in a society where stealing is allowed.
5-In other words, stealing is unethical. Not illegal; laws against stealing are merely the consequences of the Natural Law that for human beings, stealing is intolerable - the positive (man-made) law comes from and is subordinate to the Natural Law. Ethics flow from Nature, in this case, the Natural Law that says man is a social creature.
6-Stealing is taking value from me in any way except an agreed-on trade between us or a free-will gift from me to you.
7-It is not stealing for you to offer me 1000* lira for a Rivers set. I might not accept the offer, but if I did, you would not be stealing - even though you know I could sell that set for four times as much on Ebay. You are not obliged to do all my research for me.
*About $200 US at the moment.
8-But if you make a law forbidding me to sell my River set for over 1000 lira, you are using force (threat of the cops) to literally take 3000 lira from my pocket. In other words, you steal from me.
9-But I said above laws and ethics are not identical. Is it legal for me to buy a River set from DwF for about $160 US and resell it for $800 US on eBay - but still unethical?
10-Review the above. Why is not ethical?
--------DwF sold me the set of their own free will, and I paid the agreed on price.
--------Somebody paid me $800 of their own free will - they had $800 worth of 'want' for the set!

So my argument is that the buying and selling of our precious water sets is completely ethical, so long as all the trades involve neither force nor fraud on either side. And the argument does not depend on feeling....of course, you might dispute my factual assertions, for example, that humans are a social species!

Finally, it is NOT unethical to profit from deals with people 'weaker' than I am - unless I am using force or fraud. Weakness (mental or physical) simply does not matter as long as the other guy and I am bargaining without force or fraud. My greater strength does not compel the other guy to make a deal with me.

Back to billing my law clients.

Merry Xmas, Marcoreds.


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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by GODofwar » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:21 pm

marcoreds wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:49 pm
Hey man, I live in the north of Italy, near Milan...
Much less beautiful then Rome for sure :-)

Not the incredible depth of history Rome has...but less beautiful? Eh, not sure about that!
...more in succeeding posts...


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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by kitenerd » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:06 pm

marcoreds wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:53 pm
in my view they wanted to be super-fair to their customers, and just let them have some of those very rare pieces at a really affordable price.

That sounds to me as "Dear customers, we don't just want to make a profit on you. We want you to be able to have these very rare pieces, so you can enjoy them, so we sell them for what they costed when they came out. Have fun!".
YES - Exactly and hats off to DF for taking the honorable path

Unfortunately the world is filled with opportunists and nothing will prevent those folks from gaming the system, just a fact of life we have to deal with

I was shocked when someone on the forum got a lottery draw and passed to save sets for others - that was a REALLY classy move - If is didn't want a set, i probably would have gotten it anyway to trade for DoE or another sought after commodity - as it is i REALLY want a Lake Expansion set (all about the whirlpool, but the stairs are a very cool utility piece - i picked up a loose one somewhere along the line and use it often) - not sure how many are left, but i will keep checking my inbox until the last...
"Miniatures?, sure sign of a petty mind!" - 'The Women' 1939

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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by jazzman » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:55 pm

"But sir, there are people in the world starving for DF resin."

"Well, if they're going to starve they better get on with it then. The less DF collectors in the world the better."

Where have I heard something like that before? ;)

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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by marcoreds » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:49 pm

Hey man, I live in the north of Italy, near Milan...
Much less beautiful then Rome for sure :-)

And I am glad we agree this is not any kind of personal attack (it wasn't meant as such by me, and I am glad it was not taken as such), but just as a matter of discussion.

I do see your point, that I think can be summarized as "this is just how the worlds works".
Nature works like that. That's true. But that doesn't mean that nature is "ethical".
"Stealing", in nature is the norm if you can get away with it.
As is profiting of creatures weaker than you are.
So "the way the world works" in my books is not the measure of what "ethical" should be.

But, to answer your points:
- "The producer of very few things sell directly to the buyer." - DF does. We are talking about DF here, so that's what I am talking about.
- "Is everything "finite"?" - Of course it is. But for many things, if it sells, I can just make more. If I sell a lot, I can set thing so I can produce even more, that's just a commercially sound plan. Here, though, we're talking about items that DF has said will just not be produced anymore, due to problems with factories. Maybe that will change in the future, but, for now that's as is. This is a different level of "finite" than something that can just be produced again/in greater quantities.
- "Isn't buying something to sell ALWAYS..." - yes it is, that's exactly the point. DF did not sell these pieces for their original price so that others could profit out of them. If that was the aim, they would have sold them for just shy of the market price. They sold them at their original price so that people who wanted them to use them could enjoy them. They were not a "the quickest can get them for low, so they can make profit of these" thing. We may disagree on this, but if profit was the reason, then they would have sold them with all the margin they could get.

In my view, this is a situation of "I know I could get more than this for this item. I will still sell it for a lower price, so that my customers can afford to get it on their tables".

An ethical behavior, as I see it, in the same spirit of the producer/seller, is "do I want to put it on my table? If yes, that's the occasion I was waiting for. If not, I will not buy it, and let others who want to get it put it on their tables".

The attitude "How stupid DF is! Ah ah ah, they don't even know the price they can fetch on their products! I will take advantage of the situation, buy out these, corner the market, and net a nice profit!" in my opinion is not an ethical way of acting.

Is it lawful? Yes, of course. Is it a behavior that I applaud, because it shows how smart you (not you, speaking of who did this) are? Not in my books. This is something that happens in the wide world every day. In our small community of gamers who like these products, it is something I do not like to see.

That's all I mean.

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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by GODofwar » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:16 pm

PS: I'm doing my business billing on my other computer, so ANYTHING looks like fun right now...but I enjoy this sort of discussion even when I'm not billing!

BTW, I don't recall - Marcoreds, where are you in Italy? We spent ten days in Rome a few years ago (living in an AirBnB apartment in a renovated 15th century Convent, in Trastevere) and want to go back...


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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by GODofwar » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:12 pm

All cites are from Marcoreds, above.
"But is this behaviour is both lawful AND ethical?"
This is from Marcoreds' last post, immediately above, and I think below tries to answer you, Marcoreds.


(Of course these are just toys, so whatever. But the principle is the same).
Yes, and this is very important - it makes NO difference whether the item for sale is toys or Albuteral - the rights of the producer are the ethical issue - and they are the same in both cases.

This has nothing to do with the price set by the producer.
True...in this sense: The producer of very few things sell directly to the buyer. Most sell to distributors who then often sell to retailes...you know the drill. At EACH sale, the new buyer determines what price he chooses to sell for. And he may do that because, by ethically purchasing a thing he becomes its owner. Doesn't the owner have the right to sell his property in any way he wishes?
Including giving it away?



Let's say the doses of Albuterol were finite.
We can say that and its not an assumption. The available quantity of almost anything salable are finite...otherwise you probably could not sell it. Air, for example, is unsalable. On a spaceship bound for Mars, not so much!

And I buy them out, even if i don't need them, but because I know you need them, .....
These are not rhetorical questions...I'm actually interested in your answers:
Isn't buying something to sell ALWAYS 'buying what I do not need because I know you need them?
Why is it wrong to buy something knowing someone would buy it for more when I resell it?
Why is Albuterol different than anything else one sells?



....and start selling them for 20x the price I paid. Would that be legal? Of course. Would that be ethical? In my opinion, no. In yours, yes.
Marcoreds, my assertion is that these are not matters of opinion in the usual sense. My argument is that:
1-the nature of man is real, knowable, and fixed;
2-The nature of the universe ('natural law') is what it is, regardless of opinion;
3-It is objectively true (not just a matter of opinion) that I may ethically sell what I own for any price that is agreed to without force or fraud between me and my buyer.

This is a board, not an oral discussion, so I leave the proof of #3 out unless you ask for it, in which case I'll be glad to argue it.



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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by marcoreds » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:03 pm

GODofwar wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:38 pm
you could say it's like someone going and buying up all of the water after a natural disaster and then reselling it at an inflated rate.
Yes, its exactly like that. Someone owned all the bottled water. They sold it to me. I then resell it to others who want to pay for it (or they would not). Each of these transactions is perfectly lawful and ethical.
True, you didn't say that.
This is what you said.

I still do not agree with this.

Which is not lawful=ethical

But is

this behaviour is both lawful AND ethical.

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Re: ROTA Shame

Post by GODofwar » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:57 pm

marcoreds wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:44 pm

"It is allowed by law, so I will do it, and since it is allowed by law, then it is ethical" is a way of seeing thigs I do not agree with at all.
I emphatically did not say this, nor do I agree with it. In many cases the law and my ethics may coincide, but my ethics are not determined by what is lawful.

Just to be clear.

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