KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Law
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Re: KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Post by Law » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:14 pm

Oh, I love the idea of a city for an adventure. It's been awhile since I did any tabletop gaming, but skirmish games were pretty popular in the late 90's. You had Mordheim, then you had the D&D Minis game (and Chainmail before it). Heroclix, too. They were all based on encounters with small groups -- they would all work perfectly in a city setting. It's exactly the kind of game that would work really well for a Hamlet pledge -- you do a small street corner where Team A confronts Team B, and you have the street, the buildings, the roofs, all for cover and snipers and ambushes.

Then for RPG's, my personal preference, there are tons of ways for a city to be central. If you want any kind of political angle in a campaign, a town hall or central market could be a key location where a great deal takes place. You could have a guild, you could have a cult -- all sorts of groups operating in city environments, where the confrontations take place not because the players are exploring a crypt or a castle but because they're trying to navigate the socio-political structure of the city itself.

But I admit, I'm also in a minority because more than gaming and more than anything else, I like DF for just being three-dimensional interactive fantasy artwork. I love the dungeons, the caverns, the ancient crypts and the subterranean lakes, all because I love how they look. And I love being able to create my own, to customize them, and to photograph them. The city is a fantastic item for me, for that precise reason. I can see how, from a gamer's perspective (at least an RPG gamer), it might be harder to imagine how to work a city into the traditional "we need to explore this environment and see what's here" narrative. Um, it's some dude's house. ;)

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Re: KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Post by DungeonBuilder » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:07 pm

I'm all for two at once. I just wish they'd limited themselves to only two; cities and sewers. And I wish they expanded both proportionately.

And the cities look great. But cities are where you go BETWEEN the fun adventures... right? :)

Yeah, a lizard man town invasion would be cool, and a tavern brawl would be nice. But those are once or twice and old news things... the dark places of the world are where the fun is to be had. :)

So I see myself putting $800 into a city that is used sparingly at most. But that's just me.

Also, personally I wouldn't call myself frustrated, more just disappointed. And that has nothing to do with quality - all the pieces look fantastic. Mostly I just wanted a really awesome sewer set with lots of options like caverns, and I don't feel like the offering is there yet, nor does it have a chance to get there, since it's not the primary focus of the kickstarter. That's ok, but they like and listen to feedback, so I'm giving it.

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Re: KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Post by Law » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:58 am

Thanks, that does make sense. And like I said, I share the frustration in many ways -- the Catacombs sets in the resin line were an all-time high, and I wanted the sewer set to be as well. And it clearly won't be. Even if they do a KS for sewers, I'm going to be sorry to have missed out on a resin one.

I'm still really happy with what we're getting, and I suppose the bright side is that for old-timers like me, we get a city (which we've wanted for YEARS) and a sewer system (which we've started being more vocal about more recently) AND we're getting both at once, so I don't have to wait another two years for either of them. ;)

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Re: KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Post by DungeonBuilder » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:41 am

Law wrote: I don't want to sound harsh, but I don't understand the complaints from people who only want to buy sewers. You have to bid an extra $35 in order to qualify for a sewer order. Since the complaints seem generally to express an interest in doing sewers exclusively, I'm going to assume they're coming from people who want at least a Monster Sewer -- a full proper Sewer Set. So, say, you want to get a sewer, and you'd like to save money and paint it yourself. You're still in for $125. So your grand total pledge has to be $160, almost all of which is for sewers. And even if you're still galled by the extra $35 you have to spend on buildings you'll never use, you can always sell them. Heck, you could trade it on the forum with lots of folks who have been complaining that they want a larger city and don't like the structure of the builds. An extra building for $20 is a sweet deal for them.
Well, even though this is likely what I'll do, there are still problems with it:

1. I shouldn't have to pledge for city if I only want sewer. That's just bad planning, and that's why they're considering fixing it. This is the biggest reason, and honestly Stefan has always been fantastic about giving people what they want without jumping through hoops.

2. Not everyone wants to deal with the hassle of selling/trading/shipping in the secondary market. Nor should they be expected to, just to end up with what they want and what can easily be offered from the Kickstarter.

3. Cottage doesn't come with stretch goals so offloading to a person who is looking for exactly one additional building may be problematic. The better chance is someone will be looking for more than one building and the stretch goals, and will want to apply their $20 to that purchase, rather than a single building without stretch goals.

4. If all I can make back is $20 on my $35 investment, I'd rather just keep the building. It's not worth my time or money at that point.

5. But the bigger issue (for me at least) is that sewers could be cooler than it is by expanding it with stretch goals. Which you talk about here:

Law wrote: Now, if you were hoping for a full-on sewer with all the bells and whistles - lots of funky add-ons and accessories and various expansions and things, that makes more sense to me that you'd be disappointed in what you're seeing. It's really nice, but there's really only one set, and while you can do a lot with it, there's a lot left out. And I can understand wanting some of the add-ons for MBS sets you may already have.
Sewers are just ok. The reason for that is because they need to also get to cities, streets, ruins, castles, minis, more minis, magnet-enhanced widgets, lighted-up dohickies, and a bunch of other stuff that are really making the majority of offering this far (for me at least) somewhat bland. As confirmed last night, they already have a wicked additions planned for sewers, but the stretch goal road map doesn't currently include them. So it will be another Kickstarter.

I really liked the caverns KS where I got a really detailed set of caverns AND they expanded the line to enhance my previously purchased dungeon tiles. Really well done imo.
Last edited by DungeonBuilder on Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Law
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Re: KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Post by Law » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:09 am

This second option makes more sense to me -- both as a suggestion and as an expression of disappointment in KS3.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I don't understand the complaints from people who only want to buy sewers. You have to bid an extra $35 in order to qualify for a sewer order. Since the complaints seem generally to express an interest in doing sewers exclusively, I'm going to assume they're coming from people who want at least a Monster Sewer -- a full proper Sewer Set. So, say, you want to get a sewer, and you'd like to save money and paint it yourself. You're still in for $125. So your grand total pledge has to be $160, almost all of which is for sewers. And even if you're still galled by the extra $35 you have to spend on buildings you'll never use, you can always sell them. Heck, you could trade it on the forum with lots of folks who have been complaining that they want a larger city and don't like the structure of the builds. An extra building for $20 is a sweet deal for them.

And if you want a really BIG sewer and you're talking about getting multiples of the various sewer add-ons, then that $35 entry fee gets proportionately smaller and smaller. And KS3 comes with FREE SHIPPING. Which means -- if you were to find a sewer like this and buy it without wasting your time on buildings, you'll have to hope it costs less than $35 to ship or you're still not worse off. (I admit, I think this only applies to the US)

Now, if you were hoping for a full-on sewer with all the bells and whistles - lots of funky add-ons and accessories and various expansions and things, that makes more sense to me that you'd be disappointed in what you're seeing. It's really nice, but there's really only one set, and while you can do a lot with it, there's a lot left out. And I can understand wanting some of the add-ons for MBS sets you may already have.

Personally, I share that sense, but for me it's all dwarfed (see what I did there?) by the fact that this is Dwarvenite. I think the Dwarvenite lines are fine, they're durable, they're low effort, they're cute. But I got into DF for the absolute jaw-dropping perfection that is the resin line. As good as the new stuff is, it doesn't match that for me. I really, really, really wanted a sewer to be done in resin, with the paint job that would make it look 100% real. Dwarvenite is awesome, but I think Stefan would agree, nothing touches the resin stuff. It's the gold standard. And I highly doubt we'll see a resin sewer at this point.

So it's not like I haven't had disappointments of my own. I also would have loved to see the sewers given a bit more of the spotlight -- done like the Catacombs, in resin, with some expansion packs, and a real focus on them.

That said -- this sewer set DOES look amazing. It's extremely versatile, with the various types of corners and floors you can use or not. And I think the entry costs for backing sewers only is still pretty reasonable.

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Re: KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Post by jericho » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:01 am

If I decide to just buy MBS resin sets, which is looking likely, I would also like a sewers only pledge that allows access to other addons. I would pickup sewers, street packs, battlements, ratmen, town guards (if that happens), and if there were a balcony/shutter pack I would grab that too (as of now I think you can only get these as stretch goals but I believe they are compatible with the resin sets). That is a lot of money.

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Re: KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Post by DungeonBuilder » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:36 am

Same for me, almost. I agree that I think the scope is far too large for this Kickstarter; cities, streets, sewers, castles, at least two sets of minis, and last night they hinted ruins and a wicked additions for sewers. I love it all, but it seriously dilutes the stretch goal offering.

With the popularity of sewers, it's disappointing that stretch goals aren't also expanding that line.

A sewers only pledge would be interesting. Like many people, I'm only interested in the sewer portion myself. But that portion isn't expanding with stretch goals, so it's hard for me to see the value there. Assuming I do join the Kickstarter, I'd still likely pledge for the city and sewers, and then sell the city to pay for the sewers.

So I guess what I'm saying is, rather than a sewers only pledge, I'd rather have a sewers only Kickstarter. It's too late for that though, so I'd be more interested if they were also expanding that line as well with stretch goals. Unfortunately I think they'd need to do this alongside the city expansion as well, otherwise those folks would probably get agitated. To do that, the distance between goals would likely have to be much higher, which means fewer goals... argh. Just a mess. Scope = too big.

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KS3 - Wanting a 'Sewers Only' entry point

Post by dandare » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:58 pm

As I write this post I have not invested in KS3 at any level. Nor have I made any posts since launch because - being open and honest - I thought that KS3 was for primarily about sewers.
The early leaked photos led me to assume it would start sewers and maybe lead to new grates and interconnect to all the other KS1 and KS2 pieces. (hinged floor grates and ladders into sewer sides etc) + some add-on expansions to add rats, slimes & moulds & webs & festering piles of - well you know how sewers get when there is little rain...)

From what we can already see KS3 has a huge (too big?) scope. Starts with the Houses then goes right through the winding cobbled paths and Streets to a Towns fortifications. building upwards castle like even(!), Also Sewers :D , monster Figures and maybe even Special extras like town fountains / wells.
Its another DF KS that for me as a European who only buys painted would need circa $1,000 to get the widest benefit from whats on offer. Again - all looks beautiful as ever & the huge set-ups are awesome to behold... But it is a years worth of gaming money right here in April.

As one of the 'old DF collectors' I have MBA sets and many many 'non DF' buildings already. So I need to think long & hard before investing & right now the buildings are not for me. (It may hook me in later - but not right now) Also the floor grid not being obviously 'square grid' compatible is somewhat 'off putting' as well. ? :| ?

..But this is why I am posting now - from what I have just recently read on the KS comments section there is the possibility of a 'building free' sewers only KS entry option.
So here I am voicing my support for this exact option. (I have also seen people on both FaceBook and the KS comments section interested in just this as well)

Then I would be able to buy just the roof (+ chimneys + assassins perches etc) add-ons to use with my MBA. (But only ONCE DF post a photo or three that shows me that that works exactly and as beautifully as one would expect.)

Go on DF - I want to give you more of my money - make it easier for me / us.

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