The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

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jackattack
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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by jackattack » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:21 am

I don\'t know how anybody can keep up with the sheer volume of comments coming in on th KS site during the KS.

I can tell you that Stefan does read our comments, much more than he responds to directly. And he does use some of our suggestions -- or sometimes we get lucky and suggest something he was going to do anyway, I\'m not sure which.

But even if he doesn\'t use or respond to a particular idea, it\'s all market research for DF (and fun for the rest of us).
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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by kitenerd » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:34 am

Miss a little miss a lot - i take a day off and there is a 3 page thread going!

Jeff & Stefan - SOOO many people have asked for an open water pack that it would be silly not to make some for the store. This has to be the least expensive set you will ever make and folks are lining up for it. Make them 8 or 12 to a box and lots of folks will get some. Some folks will get LOTS!

Just a thought - if the SHIP pack ever materializes... then we will all need lots of open water - Well, JackAttack will be using negative space, but the rest of us with no common sense will be filling our table with little blue tiles ;)

Someone mentioned WIcked Water Addition - this would make an awesome future add on. Some tiles vortex, flotsam, splash/ripple (like something big just dropped in or surfaced) and then some dressing stuff: dock, rowboat, bottle with rolled paper inside etc. LEts hope this sees the light of day someday.

It would also be fun to see a Water 2 set with alternate shoreline sculpts. My one criticism of water is if you are not really careful they end up looking like canals and retention ponds due to the straight shores. A couple of wavy shores would let us mix things up and create more organic shorelines.
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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by Arbados » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:48 am


Open water tiles seem to be SO easy to make I felt a little sheepish to offer them


Hey Stefan:

This may be just my opinion, but if others agree or disagree then please express your thoughts. To me the cost to produce a tile is not something I\'m thinking about when I\'m buying them. I respect what you may have felt that if the tile was so easy to create that you would be \"cheating\" us in adding more to the set. In reality I believe most have no clue as to the cost per tile and simply are looking for the tiles usefulness in their game. I just want what will work best in creating what I need for my game. If the \"water only\" tiles are less costly and easier to make then great for you! I\'m not going to complain about that as I really have no clue anyways! However, if the set doesn\'t seem to offer what is needed to create what I\'m hoping for then I\'m a little disappointed.

Hopefully, you can put out an inexpensive water only tiles set for purchase when done with this Kickstarter! I would jump right in on a good number of sets especially if they were well priced. I would love even MORE if they were added in this Kickstarter, but I understand that\'s not possible.

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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by zenmaster » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:00 am

Cody N wrote:



Someone posted AMAZING pictures of using blue/red cellophane to show water/lava, instead of using tiles. The effect was impressive.

I was blown away. SO much in fact that I am not getting any water sets at all, and got more chasm sets instead to show shoreline.

Basically, you roll the coloured cellophane over the table, and build your tiles over the top. You could also lay a grid down under the cellophane to show movement space.

You can even laminate pieces of cellophane to toss down as needed.



Cody, I am so with you on this. The effect is amazing. I am the worst crafter in the world, but it would take less than an hour for me to attach Amazon-delivered cellophane on handgridded base posterboard, storable in a portfolio for easy transport. No need for an ungodly number of \"open\" tiles to buy and store. I\'m not sure what the seeming aversion to negative space layouts or gaming mats is when it comes to open water or lava lakes. They can easily be surrounded by the awesome DF creations.

I will disagree with the OP in that I think the Water Cavern pack is exceedingly versatile and great for what it is. I would not qualify that with an \"almost\". I will still be grabbing a Water cavern and Lava River painted pack for small pools, streams, springs, shores, and layout accents. I just think negative space is easy to do, saves a lot of cash on open water/lava/mana/etc. tiles, and has a nice aesthetic as well.

All that being said, it seems like the demand would be strong from a (small/large?) segment of DF buyers, so it probably wouldn\'t hurt their bottom line to offer up some open water packs at some point, not to mention it would make some ardent buyers happy :-).
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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by biowizard » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:42 pm

1 day prior to releasing the Water Pack, Jeff contacted me to have some feedback in regards to the water pack composition. Jeff and Stefan were not quite sure if the ratio of pieces they had chosen in this 30 pieces pack was right and they were wondering if they should not be releasing two Sets instead: a River Pack and a Lake Pack. That is because Stefan recognized that some people might be missing on the opportunity to have LOTS of open water pieces. After careful consideration on my part, and clarification of a possible miss-communication between Jeff and Stefan about what is an internal versus an external river corner piece, I ended up being in favor of the actual composition of the Water Pack Set. That is because there is a cost in producing 2 different Sets that would have different numbers of the same pieces and with 2-3 Water Packs as they are, you already have a lot of versatility to both make decent river-biased setups and lake-biased setups. Nevertheless, I also recommended that an open water pack Set be released by itself. That is because I knew some hardcore fans would want to make Huge lake setups. Since the ratio of # of shore pieces versus the # of open water pieces is exponential with increasing lake dimensions, releasing a Set of Open Water Pieces only was an option that would leave the end-user choose what that ratio should be for him. I also think that Open Water pieces would be a great option to build Sewer setups for people on a budget.

Finally, I believe that releasing a product for customers that keep asking for it, even though it requires little sculpt or production costs, is exactly the opposite of cheating them. DF, please include an Open Water Set!

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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by LordDust » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:15 pm

I would use the negative space approach for seas or oceans and for some non water options. I plan to put a layer or two of something on my tiles to add some more depth. I really like that look for water and will use it preferentially when I can. It just isn\'t economical for me once a build hits a certain size. Sea shores and oceans for ports or for ship scenes are good examples where negative space pulls ahead for me.

There are a number of ways to do negative space that can look good on the cheap, I just prefer the look of good water tiles. There are decent odds someone will make a larger water tile available that is a good or perfect match for the DF ones, but if there is an official open water pack with 2x2 and some 4x4 tiles I would definitely want at least one. If a user makes a bigger one that is a good enough match, I might acquire it if the price is reasonable.

Long and short, I think an open water pack is a good idea. I also like kitenerd\'s ideas of the addition of a \"flotsam\" tile and a \"ripple effect\" tile to a theoretical water wicked additions. Any other cool ideas out there for such?

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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by jackattack » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:18 pm

I always thought that a sculpted wave might be a cool thing to have. A breaker with a swell and a curl and a frothy edge.

I could move them across a waterscape as a boating hazard, or they could represent an elemental water attack, or they could be a spell effect (wall of water?), or I could use use them to make a shoreline combat more interesting (when blowgun wielding lizardmen are attacking from the shallows).

Ideally, this would be a freestanding accessory cast in translucent plastic, maybe 4\" long and 1.5\" tall. But it is a difficult thing to sculpt well -- I\'ve seen one or two small waves on the market, but they left me unimpressed.
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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by blinky » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:36 pm

jackattach wrote:


I always thought that a sculpted wave might be a cool thing to have. A breaker with a swell and a curl and a frothy edge.


That could also work nicely with the talked about ship set or the bottom of the waterfall.

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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by galahad » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:45 pm

A wave could also be used to represent a magical tidal wave
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Re:The Water Cavern Pack - So Close to being great!

Post by kitenerd » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:14 am

Wave is an awesome idea... so much potential!

just thinking of it reminds me of an adventure i ran years ago where a wave of blood swept back and forth across a room and the characters had to jump through it... very creepy and fun. There was lots of old school goodness in that adventure...

http://www.goodman-games.com/5001preview.html

took a minute, but i found it - good fun here, very bizarre stuff going on...
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