Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

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AnimeSensei
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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by AnimeSensei » Sat May 21, 2016 4:55 pm

Wait, so my free samples at Costco aren't free? Stupid membership fee!
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dice4hire
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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by dice4hire » Mon May 16, 2016 12:20 am

"Free" money ......
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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by jchunick » Sun May 15, 2016 12:42 pm

koraldon wrote:
geekjeff wrote:If you don't care for them, then as you note you are free to buy everything a la carte. I think you could actually build just about any Expert or Preconfigured pledge totally a la carte this time, although it would as expected cost more than buying the bigger sets.
Not true, at least for the ramparts and castle pledges, which can be bought cheaper in pieces rather than as a package. Not sure about the citadel/ GC but they are out of my budget in any case...
Anyway, free stretch goals should be as they are titled - free.
Ah... you mean like, 'free shipping'. ;-)
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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by koraldon » Sun May 15, 2016 7:59 am

willmontgomery wrote:
koraldon wrote:Anyway, free stretch goals should be as they are titled - free.
With all due respect, this is simply nonsense. They cannot be free. They simply incur no individually itemized charge to the backer. Obviously, in some way, their cost is distributed over the other elements of the project. If you deconstruct those other elements -- if you have enough data points to do so -- you can uncover the cost.
Of course they are not free, they just reflect that if you have higher volume the unit cost is lower.

The issue is that ramparts are a bad value proposition and not flexible.
Look at the watchtower, painted it is 260$.
To build it from parts you need fortified tower, palace tower, 6" battlements and basic add-on pledge=276$. And I'm not sure I counted everything - LED walls for example.

So ramparts are 67$ more expensive than the sum of its parts, while the watchtower is 16$ cheaper than the sum of its parts.
For the watchtower DF actually pay you to take the stretch goals, which is great ;) they are better than free.

My suggestion is too late probably, but swapping in corner would both increase value and flexibility

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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by kitenerd » Sat May 14, 2016 3:33 pm

I definitely believe there were more "free" stretch goals in KS 1 and KS 2

If you look at KS 1 & KS 2, the base sets are still available at a premium over the KS prices and with no stretch goals. It would cost dramatically more to replicate the value we got as backers in the KS

With KS 3 - we ended up with a different packaging at retail that offered a similar value proposition to the KS with stretch goals (Tudor & Stone Starter sets) - yes the preorder offered a significant savings, but not nearly to the level of KS 1 and KS 2. I suspect this is due to a maturing in the DF KS business model and the sheer number of sculpts (and personnel) involved. KS 4 looks a lot more like KS 3 in terms of structure.

Whether that is good or bad is not for me to decide (i can only decide whether i am backing or not). Certainly we are unlikely to see the fantastic bargain that was KS 1 ever again (is there anyone who doesn't wish they had pledged twice as much for KS 1???). In the end i will back this KS (and likely every KS DF ever does), but i do reserve the right to be skeptical about the value proposition offered by various pledge levels. For this KS, Ramparts has failed to impress me despite trying to talk myself into it repeatedly.
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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by Runeweaver » Sat May 14, 2016 1:56 pm

StevenO wrote:
Now when I see free SG I'm thinking of something that could cost say $15 to produce in quantities of up to say 1000. After hitting 1000 units the price may drop to $12.50 a unit and later get down to $10. In a case like this the KS would be giving the "free SG" as an actual reward for lowering the effective price on everything. I'd almost say that is how KS1 and KS2 worked as the bigger the KS got the more free pieces you got yet these were already pieces you were going to get or which could become available as add-ons.
My thoughts exactly. +1

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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by StevenO » Sat May 14, 2016 1:33 pm

Sometimes the free stretch goals could come about from hitting another cost reduction step with the main pledges thus opening up funds for more stuff. These may be "free" stretch goals but they are also looking at some model that definitely doesn't work here very well. In this KS it looks like DF was going to have to produce pretty much all of the pieces anyway so getting "new stuff" as a SG is really questionable.

Now when I see free SG I'm thinking of something that could cost say $15 to produce in quantities of up to say 1000. After hitting 1000 units the price may drop to $12.50 a unit and later get down to $10. In a case like this the KS would be giving the "free SG" as an actual reward for lowering the effective price on everything. I'd almost say that is how KS1 and KS2 worked as the bigger the KS got the more free pieces you got yet these were already pieces you were going to get or which could become available as add-ons.

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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by geekjeff » Sat May 14, 2016 10:38 am

Yes, I have never taken "free stretch goal" to mean "should cost DF money to give to me." I take it to mean "included at this price in the Kickstarter, may not be included at retail."

Some other Kickstarters may voluntarily (or accidentally, incompetently) go into the red piling on extras with the cost borne by the creators. Some other Kickstarters also run 6 months or 2 years late on fulfillment, or fail to deliver entirely.

I prefer the Dwarven Forge model. ;)

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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by willmontgomery » Sat May 14, 2016 7:52 am

koraldon wrote:Anyway, free stretch goals should be as they are titled - free.
With all due respect, this is simply nonsense. They cannot be free. They simply incur no individually itemized charge to the backer. Obviously, in some way, their cost is distributed over the other elements of the project. If you deconstruct those other elements -- if you have enough data points to do so -- you can uncover the cost.

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Re: Ramparts Improvement Suggestion

Post by kitenerd » Fri May 13, 2016 5:47 pm

I came to the same conclusion as others and scaled down just like Mobius.

I keep trying to talk myself into Ramparts and everytime it just comes up lacking...

Too bad because i would like some walls to play with so i can figure out how i would use them and what i will need when i make the plunge.

I really want to like the Ramparts pack, it just fails to get me excited. Watchtower has ALWAYS seemed like a great deal even before the SG piled up.
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