Price in the webstore

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Rabbit Burner
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon May 28, 2018 4:50 pm

Talistran wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm

Anyways,
I really think that by having it as a "multiple of dollars spent" will be purchasing power into the customer's hand AND won't be demoralizing people who primarily are buying add-ons.
We go with that 😀

One thing we will say is that we think DF are not just about making money or they would provide many of what's been suggested. But we get the impression they do things for the drama and talking points. The two headed croc from the KSIII grab bag which they made available in KSV for example.

A DF KS is almost about the experience rather than the product..... wait....no of course it's about the product, but people actively look forward to the KS with little intention of buying much just to take part.

Have to admit to wanting those pools but did not want the encounter.
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by GardenDM » Mon May 28, 2018 11:34 am

@Law - I realize I'm answering a different question here, but my beef with KS5 wasn't that there were exclusives, but rather how they were gated by encounter instead of by total spend.

I would have preferred to see backer tiers (e.g. Squire@$200, Knight@$600, Champion@$1000, Hero@$1500) with SGs going to a certain tier or above (e.g. 1 free table and mini-dungeon to all backers at Knight and above), regardless of what you actually backed for. This would have created incentives and pressure to up your pledge ("wow, 5 free and exclusive items just for upping to Knight...well, I do really want some marble themed dungeon, so why not just add that now"). I know some folks hate "gold" systems, but I've seen it work well elsewhere and think it could work here too. It would also allow for some SGs to be for bonus "gold" instead of items (e.g. @ 1 million USD, all backers get an extra 10% gold to spend on items).

Anyway, nothing to do now but wait and see how it's handled for KS6 and hope for the best.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Law » Mon May 28, 2018 7:22 am

pacarat wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm
The more they can sell of any piece, the more cost effective it is to make that mold. Why would anyone want to limit sales of _any_ piece by limiting its availability to one (or even a few) encounter(s), SG, or as a single capstone?
This whole convo is kinda moot bc DF has made it clear that they won't be limiting the cool bling pieces to mega sets this time around. So -- yay, problem solved!

But (and I promise, I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I genuinely want to know) -- why aren't you persuaded by the reasoning that having exclusives drives up interest and sales?

You know the spiel -- SGs in general motivate people to keep pledging. If you can get enough people to budge from $200 to maybe $300, enough from $300 to ("aw, screw it!") $500, and enough people from $1800 to $2500 and so on, all because the elusive SG is soooo .... close.... then it's worth it.

Similarly, if the only way to get a capstone piece is to buy the $500 or $1000 set it comes with, then some people are going to say "well, I was in for so much already, and I really want that piece." If you can get it cheaper and easier another way, those large mega sets don't have the same appeal, and sell fewer units.

Really, the only way to know if this is a good way to do things or not is to crunch a lot of data, and to have a control group. Here's how many of the mega sets sold when the exclusive capstone was part of the deal, and here's how many sold without that. Here's how big the KS went with the limited SG goals, and here's how big it went when SGs were just more common pieces.

You may be right, making pieces more widely available could work out. The math could be that if 2000 customers buy a cheaper bling set you do far better than if only 200 buy your mega set with the exclusive capstone. But I don't know how anyone could really tell that without the data. Maybe you have the data, I don't know. I know a lot of dedicated forum trogs watch the KSs and track their performance down to the hour, so there are definitely some business majors and statistics folks up in here who can get very precise answers.

I admit I'm sympathetic because this stuff works on me. Before the KSs began, DF regularly offered incentives if you pre-ordered 3 of a new set. Three river sets gets you a boat, three lake sets gets you some lizardmen, three ROTA sets gets you a cool painted mosaic room. And I went for it every time. In each case I could always justify the extra sets -- it's DF, you can ALWAYS justify getting more -- but to be honest, without those incentives I probably wouldn't have. The river set, which only included one dead end, maybe I'd have sprung for two, so I could cap a stream at both ends or just make a small lake. But I doubt I'd have gotten three, certainly not all at once. Didn't need three ROTA wicked addition sets or three lake expansion sets either. Ended up with enough resin water to choke a horse! Maybe I'd have gotten more gradually over time -- but even knowing that made it more tempting ("if you're gonna end up paying for three and storing three eventually, why shoot yourself in the foot and miss the chance to get the exclusive piece?"). So -- I have anecdotal data that it CAN be a good business practice! Question is, obviously, whether they'd make more by selling fewer basic sets but making up for it by selling more sets that have these bling pieces in them. But, again, that's a data question -- doesn't seem to me that intuition or anecdotes really answer it.

I'm just curious about why you're not convinced of the effectiveness of the exclusive model.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by dice4hire » Mon May 28, 2018 4:46 am

I am not a gotta-have-everything collector but I would like a good variety of pieces because it is just cool. I am not really a fan of super capstone pieces like KSV was littered with either. A set of all the hard-to-get pieces would make sense to me.
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 10:30 pm

kodiakbear wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:57 pm
Talistran wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm
I think DF has to accept if we aren't going to be spending $5000 per Kickstarter anymore
I am not trying to disagree with you but lots of people said this after KS4 and then look at what happened in KS5.
Yep. Many of them did spend a lot and many of them didn't (anecdotal information from personal conversations. And then they went from the "worst" DF theme in history to the "best," which brought in a bunch of people and a kept people pledging. But, my KS5 pledge was 1/2 in price as my KS4 (and 10x my KS1 pledge). We're going to run out of space. We're going to run out of need for "basics." There is no denying that.

It's all good though. I just want what is best for DF, because ultimately it is good for all of us for them to be financially sound. I've bought, sold, and run companies far larger than DF... and all niche-market companies have certain things in common. They can't afford to leave money in the hands of their limited clientelle and they have to keep recruiting new blood (which is not easy in luxury markets, with limited client bases). But neither one of those things is sufficient alone. IMO, they have to stop pretending the options are only "whale" OR "sub-$1000 wicked sets". There is a middle ground that many of us would be happy to belong in, so long as they create a way to "collect it all" for a middle ground price.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by kodiakbear » Sun May 27, 2018 8:57 pm

Talistran wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm
I think DF has to accept if we aren't going to be spending $5000 per Kickstarter anymore
I am not trying to disagree with you but lots of people said this after KS4 and then look at what happened in KS5.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm

pacarat wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm
The more they can sell of any piece, the more cost effective it is to make that mold. Why would anyone want to limit sales of _any_ piece by limiting its availability to one (or even a few) encounter(s), SG, or as a single capstone?
Agreed. It is hugely demoralizing, especially to collectors who want a few of everything and hundreds of nothing. Many of us are reaching a saturation point. No more space to store dungeons of doom, no desire to spend $5,000 to get a little of everything just to sell or store the useless pieces. Their business model has to change if they want their loyal customers to continue buying. I think DF has to accept if we aren't going to be spending $5000 per Kickstarter anymore, they can get $1500-2000 by offering a collectors pack with a little bit of EVERYTHING (screw the mega whale capstones)... or they can have us buy a few hundred dollars worth of wicked packs. Their choice. But I know which way I would go if I were them.

However, there is a reasonable limit of how many "packs" they can offer. So I know they can't offer stand-alone packs of evertthing

But I have been suggesting that they put all the capstone pieces into a single pack and double/triple their normal profit margin on the pack and sell thousands of them for a long time. It is a win-win. That, plus a Dungeon of Doom Lite, would have solved a lot of the legitimate complaints about KS5 last year.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm

dice4hire wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:51 am
I am also going to be very interested in how DF does SG in the next KS. I liked KSI and KSII and KSIV overall for stretch goals. We got a smattering of new interesting pieces. KSIII was to some extent ok, but the first half million dollars or so (floors and walls and posts) were not really stretch goals. Later SG were good in KSIII.
Agreed on all fronts. Although, KS1 and KS2 stretch goals actually made me excited to help recruit and spend more... while the others seemed organic and were "just happening."
dice4hire wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:51 am
KSV was not stretch goals by any stretch of the imagination. They just took the 1.75 million dollar(or maybe more likely 1.5) of pledging and figured out what they could make in an encounter at about that level. Then they trimmed pieces out and handed them out as stretch goals.
Exactly. And your money was oftentimes not even helping you get a pledge goal as the PG was going towards encounters you were not even purchasing. Completely demoralizing.
dice4hire wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:51 am
I know it was the first real encounter set and I hope the onex in KSVI are st from the beginning and get some interesting pieces after that. Or something. DF said stretch goals might not be tied to the encounters, personally I hope they are attached to something like a trove, a pile of miscellaneous pieces.

What I really really hope is that we can just plain buy stretch goal sets like people have been asking for for a long time. Hand some out free for pledge levels or the like but also let people buy them, even in the PM so DF knows exactly what they cost.
They have tried the other styles of stretch goals. Maybe it is time to try this... a small pool of items (that grows bigger as the numbers go up) that are NOT AVAILABLE in other ways except as Stretch Goals... where you receive 1 set of SGs for every $400 (I'm making up a number) that you spend... and make them available as you say "during the PM" after costs have been established. But make sure we know they will be available during the PM so people don't have to spend mental resources being upset about how they wish they could get 4x of A or 7x of B ;)

So, to recap, Stretch Goals are:

1) A pool of unique items that have new things contributed every time we reach certain $$ goals as a Kickstarter

2) Assigned by how many multiples of $$X you spend (you get one for every $400 you spend).

3) Available for a TBD price during the pledge manager (and afterwards in the DF Store)


Think about the problems customers have had in the past with stretch goals:

A) Add-on buyers and purchases don't get them. (KS1, KS2, KS3, KS4, KS5)

B) Customers are contributing towards stretch goals they will never receive (above and beyond "add-on buyers" noted in #1). (KS5 primarily)

C) They don't seem substantial or subjectively "rewarding" (KS3, KS4, KS5)

D) They are non-exciting, utilitarian type pieces (e.g. half-walls, mini-stairs) that don't exactly pump the blood to throw money at your dancers... err, I mean Kickstarter. (some of KS3, some of KS4, a little in KS5)

E) Artificially increase the resale value of Kickstarter pledges against the Webstore versions (primarily KS1, but a little bit in KS2, KS3, KS4). In theory, DF should want to keep profit dollars for themselves as much as possible.


Anyways,
I really think that by having it as a "multiple of dollars spent" will be purchasing power into the customer's hand AND won't be demoralizing people who primarily are buying add-ons.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by pacarat » Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm

The more they can sell of any piece, the more cost effective it is to make that mold. Why would anyone want to limit sales of _any_ piece by limiting its availability to one (or even a few) encounter(s), SG, or as a single capstone?

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 7:52 pm

Seraphis the Bland wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:43 am
I would have bought that Eldritch Pool if it had been a separate piece. I didn't need more walls, so I didn't buy the encounter.
Yah, I would have bought 12 of the pools as a separate piece... probably more to mod with monsters coming out. That $1.81 piece to manufacture... could have been sold as a set for $25 for 4 and we would have bought thousands of them.

The Eldritch pool is the PERFECT example of how I think the DF "capstone" / hard to get piece business model is costing DF money. They know they took a desired piece and made it scarce. I know they tried, and I know they can't add separate packs for everything. They even added it to a "Wicked" pack (with a bunch of other things that I didn't necessary want 12 of at $100 per pack, even though I wanted 12 pools) to try and make it more accessible. But this one screamed for a 2 pack or 4 pack add-on because of all the customization that could be EASILY done to it. Pour some resin water, pour some blood pools, lava, acid, have monsters coming out of those things. Cut out the circle, and be able to use negative space images below it. Make it into a summoning circle opening up, or a portal. See, you need 12 just for variety, let alone a few of them in the same setup as part of a puzzle (in order to get the door open, you have to have a character standing in each of 4 pools in separate corners of a large chamber... one filled with lava, water, acid, black tar, etc... as the door opens, a monster attacks from each pool).

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