What Can We Improve for KS6?

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by DWChancellor » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:46 am

The next time someone mentions that the chase pieces are only really being made for whales, keep in mind the HUGE numbers of every other piece that they are buying and subsidizing for the small backers.

Thank you whales. One day may I join your pod. One day.

ps - I hate chase pieces =)
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by evandariel » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:21 am

Weasel, it's just not true that people are "bitching" about not getting everything. The complaint (and a valid one) is that you can't do what you suggest to get the pieces you might want. There's no way to get some things without buying encounters. Sure, it's fine to say "well if you want it you have to spend more", but the method used was actually "well if you want it you have to spend more on pieces you don't want in large quantities".

I don't think there would be a complaint if the SG pack or capstone pack was more pricey. It's that there isn't one. I use the lizard mini as an example. A pricey add on for everyone to get it in a pack, maybe. But if you want the mini what do you have to do? Buy a 665 dollar unpainted set, with no discount, or buy a DoD for 3600 with a small discount and a multiplication of the original problem.

That's not the same as what you said for "Type 1" buyers just having to pony up a little more cash and being able to get what they want. Unless 600 is small change for you, but for most that's their whole budget.
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Indignation » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:34 am

I haven't the time to read everyone's comments, so hopefully I don't repeat too much.

Firstly, the ugly....

1. late into the game you guys put up a banner in NY. It makes sense to put it there, lots of traffic, it's your headquarters, $80 bucks gets a cool banner that gets the word out.... that should have gone up Day one. Maybe even before day one but I wouldn't want people trying to find it online and it not be there so they give up. (Cool idea, you could sell it, or do a raffle. Unless you really wanted to keep it. Idk if anyone would buy it but that's a thought)

2. The social stretch goal came out SOO LATE. If that thing had been bouncing around from the beginning again more people would have seen it, more people would have spread it, and more people would have joined. Idk if the idea didn't come up till later, or if you couldn't think of a reward, but you should definitely have a social goal next time, even if it's only to unlock an add on.

3. I kept seeing people from previous KSers saying the message had yet to be sent out to prior backers. A couple people explained that you were waiting for all the add ons. WHY! You have a list of people who you know like this product and your waiting to contact them. Meanwhile other Kickstarters are out there potentially competing with you for their money. Furthermore, if any of them need time to save money elsewhere to have a budget for this, your missing out on their pay period and they show up without any funds.


Let's move on to the good.

1. I love the encounter system. I'm very new to DMing and having a campaign to go with the terrain I'm getting is a great plus. Also, I'm not very knowledgeable in the cost of all of this to you but it seems like previous Kickstarters would have cost a lot for stretch goals, and by stretching them across different packages your able to keep your cost down (I want a good deal but I don't want it to come at the cost of your business)

2. I really like the location. You've got dungeons, caves (with ice and lava variants) and now burrows. vaulted walls is a cool variation to the dungeon, but I would still say it's dungeon. Burrows are not caves.... they are new and great! I look forward to seeing what the next new location is.

3. Stefans play by post leading up to the burrows reveal was great!

And now for things that can be improved or added.

1. I got the DoD, so I got all the stretch goals. I've seen a lot of people who, because theyve been around a long time, they only wanted add ons as they didn't see a need for floor pieces and the like. Or because they could only get some of the lower levels of the dungeon they stopped being involved in the stretch goals early on.

I'm no expert on the math of this but perhaps adding a pledge that gets some of the stretch goals sprinkled in while only requiring an add on purchase. Again, no expert but perhaps it's a "decorative wall" pledge, throw in a few magnetic walls and they can gain access to the magnetic stretch goals. Perhaps even gain access to sysuul.

I don't think it would be as competitive as the full dungeon, but a viable way for those who already own so much that they can't put in for the full dungeon. Failing this, I recommend possibly putting an explanation as to why the stretch goals are somewhat exclusive (I imagine there is cost involved)

2. I like stefans idea of several different themes for next year. Perhaps the title could be something along the lines of "side quests in valoria" or something? "Quests of valoria?" Quests of valor?

Instead of 15 different rooms in one dungeon it's 15 different encounters in different dungeons (or burrows or caves or where ever the adventures find themselves. One quest finds the group, off to the north in a cave filled with all the new things you guys want to design.

Another might be in some part of the castle you haven't been able to cast yet. Or something with the villages sets. Or wherever your going.

Just an idea that lets you guys continue using the campaign idea while doing multiple different set ideas.

3. Idk, I thought this was all great. Get those videos out there and let the players see what your thoughts are behind the design.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by arsthein » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:15 am

marcoreds wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:50 am
- Encounters are very good. But the special parts should be separated from the basic pieces, so that one can pick both or either according to his needs. While this seems like asking to double the offer, in fact it isn't. I am asking to build the encounters as a combination of basic building blocks, so that you can decide if and which basic pieces picking, and get the bling as a separate part (at the right higher price).

As an example (I said this elsewhere, but maybe not everybody reads every single topic):
Zaltar: 1 Starter Dungeon + Zaltar's pack (that contains the special pieces) + optional (general) LED pack
Gorgon: 3 starter dungeon + Elevation package + Gorgon pack + optional (general) LED pack

If you look at the add-ons list, the "base building blocks" are already nearly there. There's a lot of add-ons that could be used this way (maybe tuning their numbers of course with this point of view, and surely making them on the smaller side, like "4 LED packs" rather than "8 LED packs"). For example, the various possible Vaulted Dungeon, Classic dungeon packs, Passages packs, Elevation packs, Daises packs, LED packs, and so on. Just try and build encounters as the sum of these basic add-ons.

I mean, let's say you asked Tobi: "ok, Tobi. I give you 1 Classic Pack (pick any), 1 Vaulted Pack (pick any), 1 Extra Pack (pick daises, or elevations, or curved walls, or whatever). Build me an encounter with those. Then if you need special pieces, here is the list (or feel free to suggest new ones you'd need), use them, in the relative quantities you want, you can also add one or two of these capstone piece; they will be the encounter pack. Then think of what you could add to bling it up with LEDs or magnetic packs. Those will be the suggestion to enhance the encounter, so that every encounter will have a base version, and a blinged up version if you also get the LED pack."

Do this 4 times.

Then do the same, but this time you're not limited to 1 basic pack, you can use 2. Then again for 3 basic, and maybe 2 features pack. Then for 5. These will be the bigger encounters.

In the end you will have 1 encounter pack for each encounter. Plus the usual basic and LED and magnetic pack, that you do anyway. No SKU added.

Doing things this way, someone who already has the basic, can pick all the encounter packs for much cheaper than what is possible now (and can access the special pieces and capstones more easily), then maybe a couple basic sets with the vaulted pieces, just to have that special areas.

A beginner can just pick the list of sets that is suggested, if starting from scratch, to build whatever encounter he wants. Not only this, but let's say I am on a limited budget, and I like the Gorgon Tier. As suggested, I buy 3 basic sets, an elevation pack, the Gorgon pack, even one LED pack to bling it up. I am already satisfied, but then I look at the other encounter, and see that, to build Zaltar, I do not need to buy all the sets needed to build it. "Hey, I already have the basic pack! So, If I just add the Zaltar Pack, I can build that different encounter for much cheaper! Sure, I won't be able to have out both Gorgon and Zaltar at the same time, but with my limited budget I wasn't planning on that anyway, it's ok building rooms one at a time, I will get more basic packs in the shop." Then he looks and see that he also has the basics for the Arcane Alcove! and the AA package is really cheap! I can get that too!

In my opinion this would really show the beginner the spirit of DF, that is: you're not just buying a diorama. You're buying modular pieces that, with a few changes, can be used to create loads of different setups. He might even think "Uhm, I wonder if I mix pieces from different sets what I can come up with..."

- Stretch goals: at this point, it's ok to link them to the Encounters packages, since these packages got much cheaper. In lesser quantities of course, since the encounter packages got cheaper.
I just want to stress how genious I think this idea is, taking advantage of this iteration by Marcoreds, which I find is superbly expressed and analyzed. Thank you Marcoreds.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by arsthein » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:06 am

kodiakbear wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:03 am
I personally would not want two DF KS a year even if they were smaller but a single new add-on that came out in the web store during a fall restock would be a great x-mas gift idea.
I'm in this camp too. Unless is a very small KS for something niche like odd minis, I think I would be ok with that. But most of it, I agree that making 2 Kickstarters a year may be hell on earth for the people involved, and I don't wish that for any of the DF fellows.

Non-related add-on opinion (to my Mega Pack post): I'm also in the minority of people who prefer all add-ons revealed as soon as possible. Always in the realm of the possibilities that are feasible to you: tie them to total pledge amounts if you need to.

I reckon the reveals are exciting and fun and draw people everyday, including a reluctant me who ends up enjoying that game, but it's a double edged sword. In the end, I don't know what's better for the KS success. That's for DF to decide (as is the rest of the matters discussed anyways). Bottomline, I do agree that the last add-on should be revealed (if not tied to a pledge total amount), a week, or 4-5 days, 3 at least, before the campaign ends.

Greetings!

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by arsthein » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:43 am

At this point I don't feel the need to disclaimer my criticisms or say the good stuff when discussing potential improvements, but I see some people getting a little depressed with so many comments discussing things that could be done better, so again, to keep the spirit of the thread up and don't contribute to that feeling I'll state up front that I love DF, I loved this KS, and that I'll be there in all of them to come, even if it's for a little amount to show my support, even if I get little or even nothing. I'll pledge for 1$ if I have to, although I seriously doubt that will ever happen. I'm ok with what I've spend and what I'll get, and I think the product is as superb as it has ever been (I think KS4 has seen the most problems so far but I didn't buy much castles so this opinion comes from reading the KS 4 subforum out of curiosity). The management of the campaign has seen a dismal improvement too.

I want to say too, since some of my criticism has been taking before as just personal concerns, that I have concerns that I don't voice when I see clearly that just come from my personal situation: budget, pre-existing collection, tastes, etc. I try to voice only those which I think should be of interest to DF in the big scope of things. And of course, I totally lack actual knowledge about what is profitable for DF or don't, these are just my POV.

I think too, that the PM is still coming and many of the things we are discussing will be corrected right there and we'll end up cheering like madmen (more than we have already cheered).

So with that out of the way, here I come with my suggestions, please if I do a poor job being respectful and positive, take into consideration (again) that I'm not native english speaker:

I'm pretty much a +1 to almost all of what has been said, so consider me in the same boat as the more voiced criticism in this thread so far. Some things to add about those coming next:

Although I'm personally ok with the scope of this kickstarter, I think a lot of people have made excellent points about the dangers of not limiting the scope. Just think if WotC or Paizo released sets of minis of 500+. There would be minis you couldn't get not because you don't wanted it, just because you had to prioritize others you need more over them and that could end up considering a failure something that actually it's not. WotC doesn't have the problem of stock, so people could buy them later, but in the case of DF it could turn into a pretty dire problem. So I think it should be taken into very careful consideration. About the comparisons between MtG model and this, I don't think it's healthy for DF to copy anything about that model, I don't think they would keep the loyal fanbase it has with that behaviour.

Also, I see as a mistake to say you go back to a simple kickstarter and then do it this way. That could hurt DF's rep. I know there are different opinions amongst backers but such a huge division is already telling something.

About chase pieces, I don't get it either. Unless, some are more expensive to manufacture than others! This I haven't seen taken into consideration thus far. But in absence of that knowledge, I have to line up with the people who doesn't like it. I get its value as incentive to purchase big encounters, but if you're not going to take an encounter for the reasons most people seem that are not going to take it, you're not going to take it because of the capstone anyway. And I think the more units you manufacture from a piece, the better for them. I think that selling those pieces in packs doesn't diminish its value as incentive for big packs, just sell them at higher price when they are not in a big pack. I'm pretty sure people who want them would prefer it that way that not being able to get them at all.

I was very sad about the surprise minis from KS3, and even for simple pieces like hand-stairs. I still don't have a DF version of them that you can get without adopting a new system like CBS or Castles.

Then, in KS4 there are AWESOME pieces that you couldn't get in packs even in the PM, like the grappling hook or the siege stairs. Those are incredible accesories! I have one of each, but I would have bought more given the chance.

Most of the chase pieces in this KS have been more flashy things, and I have less difficulty accepting them as chase pieces (even though I don't like the concept) but sometimes some pieces, that in my opinion shouldn't be rare at all, become very difficult to get without having huge packs/encounters, like the corner vaulted secret door, the elevated arch, the levers, and I include the ossuary pieces here too.

And that brings me to the things I think could improve more substantially.

I'm ok with encounters existing per se. I just think it damages the traction of the kickstarter for a lot of newbies (not all, I know as has been proved), when you made them the center of the campaign. I think it was very well handled (if adjusted mid-campaign) in KS4. It has it's purpose. It simplifies things for people who need that, and shows the possibilities. That's true. But I think also are a little scary for new people. Put them as "expert pledges" as in KS4, and I think you'll be golden. But I think you still need that the sets (in this KS managed as add-ons) are the first thing to be seen in the KS page.

Making most of the encounters so full of basic walls, floors, etc (even if they are vaulted new ones), is what makes people with large amounts of basic pieces try to avoid those sets if they can, and to relay in add-ons. That creates two problems: you'll never appease all people with the configuration of add-ons, even if you try your best and make a ton, and those people doesn't get stretch goals, even if they spend a DoD worth of money (not my case, so doesn't affect me much, but what's fair is fair). The latter you'll know better than us if you can find a way to add SG to add-on pledges based on amount pledged or if you rather reset the pledge system to sets and put Encounters as "Expert Pledges" ala KS4.

Then the best idea I have heard are the Encounters divided in bling pack and basic pieces pack, or put only bling packs and add instructions about which and how many sets of basic pieces you'll need to build that encounter. That would be just perfect, and I think would solve 2 issues (or even 3!) with one shot. Let's not forget that if you don't build at the table the whole dungeon of doom in one go, you don't need those passage pieces (in case you want them at all) inserted in several Encounters.

Then it wouldn't take as many add-on configurations to please people budget or desire to not get unwanted pieces.

On the other hand, again I'll never know how much sense financially this makes, but I would make the add-on packs smaller. Add the mega-packs if you can afford it (it's good for many people) but I would prioritize reducing some add-on packs, to some extent, (I'm not talking individual pieces here) just do what you can while still having profit from them.

For example, if you need to make 8 elevation block packs, make them instead of 16. If you need to charge much more per piece in an 8 pack, so be it. I think people would prefer paying more per piece and still having more budget to spend on other items (and not having to store pieces you would rather not use), than being forced to take a more expensive, bigger pack. If you can do this, and still offer mega packs, that's great too. Doing the Encounters divided by bling / basic packs would help offering more diversity of add-ons, instead of offering less different packs, or you could adjust to a middle ground as you see fit.

I'm one to advocate for LEDS being in their own packs too, don't want to hurt anybodies feelings, I know some pals love them and can't get enough, but this is just my personal, subjective preference, so there it goes. I miss the wall torches of the old resin Deluxe Room Set. I cherish the bunch I have. I don't mind, and actually like a lot, having some über-blinky LED pieces, but that's all.

Then, more magnetic, non-trap related accesories!

And BONUS SUGGESTION that I haven't seen anywere, just a random idea that I had recently:

I recieved some days ago my KS4. I loved the hanging accesories and think they are a immense addition to any dungeon. I think more of those would be awesome. And, although I love magnets, I think you could avoid magnets in some accesories, if you make them the "hanging" type. Just consider it when you are designing an accesory. If after considering you still feel that it's more well suited for magnets or simply just looks better then go for it anyway, I'll buy it, as I say I love magnets. Just saying that now, I love hanging accesories too!

And I think that would be it, probably there's more, but I think I've gone too far already with the length of this post. Crom bless you if you read it till this point.

In the end, we'll all be fine, but it's better more fine that less fine! (=)> so here they go my suggestions, this time, requested.

Lots of love and respect, both to all DF staff and my fellow forumites.

Cheers!

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by marcoreds » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:05 am

I was forgetting 2 quick things:

- Special encounters, with a different settings, like Burrows and Shrine, are good as they are, since most of the pieces are new ones and they can't be substituted with old pieces. An Encounter, plus smaller addons. Perfect

- I do understand why there are so many Vaults in the offer. The reason is, if you pick just one or a few of the encounters, it is only a good thing that the basic pieces used there are the new ones, even old timers would want some. It becomes a problem for those who want to get a lot of the encounters, or the whole offer, because these vaulted pieces start to add up, and if you go all'in you get a ton of them...

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by marcoreds » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:50 am

Heya, I also add my opinion here.

As a preface, I really liked this KS, and think it was organized very well, just trying to see if it is possible to organize it even better in the future.

To recap the problems I see exposed (and that I think are all related):

- I want cheaper ways to get particular special pieces (where cheaper = not having to get a load of other things at the same time)
- I want to get the new things, but don't want to get a lot of the basic pieces, as I already have a lot of KS1 basics; very hard to do that, with any kind of discount
- There was too much. I have limited money and I can't get all that I want
- I don't want LED or magnetic. Can't I have a stripped version of the encounter for cheaper?

Imho the way to solve all of these is through more modularity. There already is a lot in this KS, and full modularity is impossible (that would be: pick your pledge piece by piece), but I think there could be more.

What I think should be done:

- Encounters are very good. But the special parts should be separated from the basic pieces, so that one can pick both or either according to his needs. While this seems like asking to double the offer, in fact it isn't. I am asking to build the encounters as a combination of basic building blocks, so that you can decide if and which basic pieces picking, and get the bling as a separate part (at the right higher price).

As an example (I said this elsewhere, but maybe not everybody reads every single topic):
Zaltar: 1 Starter Dungeon + Zaltar's pack (that contains the special pieces) + optional (general) LED pack
Gorgon: 3 starter dungeon + Elevation package + Gorgon pack + optional (general) LED pack

If you look at the add-ons list, the "base building blocks" are already nearly there. There's a lot of add-ons that could be used this way (maybe tuning their numbers of course with this point of view, and surely making them on the smaller side, like "4 LED packs" rather than "8 LED packs"). For example, the various possible Vaulted Dungeon, Classic dungeon packs, Passages packs, Elevation packs, Daises packs, LED packs, and so on. Just try and build encounters as the sum of these basic add-ons.

I mean, let's say you asked Tobi: "ok, Tobi. I give you 1 Classic Pack (pick any), 1 Vaulted Pack (pick any), 1 Extra Pack (pick daises, or elevations, or curved walls, or whatever). Build me an encounter with those. Then if you need special pieces, here is the list (or feel free to suggest new ones you'd need), use them, in the relative quantities you want, you can also add one or two of these capstone piece; they will be the encounter pack. Then think of what you could add to bling it up with LEDs or magnetic packs. Those will be the suggestion to enhance the encounter, so that every encounter will have a base version, and a blinged up version if you also get the LED pack."

Do this 4 times.

Then do the same, but this time you're not limited to 1 basic pack, you can use 2. Then again for 3 basic, and maybe 2 features pack. Then for 5. These will be the bigger encounters.

In the end you will have 1 encounter pack for each encounter. Plus the usual basic and LED and magnetic pack, that you do anyway. No SKU added.

Doing things this way, someone who already has the basic, can pick all the encounter packs for much cheaper than what is possible now (and can access the special pieces and capstones more easily), then maybe a couple basic sets with the vaulted pieces, just to have that special areas.

A beginner can just pick the list of sets that is suggested, if starting from scratch, to build whatever encounter he wants. Not only this, but let's say I am on a limited budget, and I like the Gorgon Tier. As suggested, I buy 3 basic sets, an elevation pack, the Gorgon pack, even one LED pack to bling it up. I am already satisfied, but then I look at the other encounter, and see that, to build Zaltar, I do not need to buy all the sets needed to build it. "Hey, I already have the basic pack! So, If I just add the Zaltar Pack, I can build that different encounter for much cheaper! Sure, I won't be able to have out both Gorgon and Zaltar at the same time, but with my limited budget I wasn't planning on that anyway, it's ok building rooms one at a time, I will get more basic packs in the shop." Then he looks and see that he also has the basics for the Arcane Alcove! and the AA package is really cheap! I can get that too!

In my opinion this would really show the beginner the spirit of DF, that is: you're not just buying a diorama. You're buying modular pieces that, with a few changes, can be used to create loads of different setups. He might even think "Uhm, I wonder if I mix pieces from different sets what I can come up with..."

- Stretch goals: at this point, it's ok to link them to the Encounters packages, since these packages got much cheaper. In lesser quantities of course, since the encounter packages got cheaper.

- Discount: my opinion is that you could link the discount to the pledge amount. The more you pledge (whatever you get) the more discount. You can hand out the discount in the form of extra credit in the pledge manager, so it doesn't need to be calculated by the backer when he pledges, but it will be additional funds to spend on things in the manager, calculated automatically by (easy) software. Since the discount won't probably be exactly the cost of something else, people will probably even add something in the manager to round up the numbers. And given you're adding something, well, might as well add a little more and also get that other thing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As an aside, my personal difficulty in this KS is that I am a newcomer and I don't have loads of KS1. I want to get it all, but would greatly prefer a much greater proportion of classic pieces, that I think are far more general. I do want the basic vaulted pieces; I just don't want 91 Vaulted Walls and 21 Classic Walls, would much rather prefer like 60 Classic and 52 Vaulted.

But all the stretches and discounts are tied to the encounters, and all the encounters contain lots of Vaulted... So if I build a pledge like I want, it costs a lot more that say the DoD. Or on the other hand, spending the equivalent of the DoD gives me a lot less pieces. And I mean a lot.

So I am strangely in the same position as those who have 20 KS1 sets: I want less Vaulted (would get Classic instead) :-)

Have a nice day!

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by bmcdaniel » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:15 am

I would echo some of the concerns expressed about the scale and complexity of this KS. However, unlike others my concern is not about "keeping up" or expense. My concern is about keeping quality high.

I definitely saw a slip in quality for KS4. Mismatched paint jobs, pieces not fitting right, I correct shipments and, let's face it, some poor design (gatehouse in particular and the interaction if arrow slits and battlements).

I think DF has hinted that a lot if these quality issues are directly attributable to the scope and complexity of KS4. I fear that K5, while not quite as complex as KS4, is ambitious enough we will see some quality problems.

Although I fully understand that, as artists, DF wants to be pushing the boundaries, I think DF is better positioned to be a high-quality, durable and we'll thought out product.

Maybe there will be no quality problems with KS5. But i would rather DF present a less ambitious but more thoroughly tested product.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Archimagus » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:00 am

My comments.

This kickstarter did better than I thought it would, because it looked complex on day one. But I kinda liked guessing as to what the last two encounters would be and enjoyed the reveal.

Suggestions:

Smaller scale, less sculpts. I want DF to stay healthy and profitable. This one had the potential of crashing and burning because of the shear size upfront. It was successful so congrats.

Chase pieces. Don't like them. Although I have all the pieces made in resin and dwarvenite (except one, I'm looking at you runic throne). I never liked the idea that others can't get them. That is why I sold all my magic cards. The chase pieces are paid for by all the backers, but you have to go all in to actually get them. That is not reasonable for most people. Since the molds are made, make the chase pieces available in the next KS as an add-on. That way those that pledge for them upfront, get them a year early. I always felt the resin chase pieces should be available later to those that wanted them (door raft, shuttered windows, blowpipe lizardmen, and ROTA medallion piece).

If you want collect-ability, go with the alternate paint schemes. I really like that idea. If someone wants marble floor pieces years from now, they can always paint them that way. Jade temple, same thing. But the pieces will still be available to others, just not painted the same way. Excellent idea.

I like the encounters idea, just not 15 at once. Also, should always have a beginners or newbies pledge level.

There was a lot of creativity in this KS, I applaud that. You tried out a lot of new ideas at once. Again, that was a good thing. But don't be afraid to make changes. Whales are good, they keep things alive, but we need new backers to keep going.

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