What Can We Improve for KS6?

GODofwar
Minotaur
Minotaur
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:46 pm
Location: Midwest

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by GODofwar » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:07 pm

marcoreds wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:50 am
Heya, I also add my opinion here.

As a preface, I really liked this KS, and think it was organized very well, just trying to see if it is possible to organize it even better in the future.

To recap the problems I see exposed (and that I think are all related):

- I want cheaper ways to get particular special pieces (where cheaper = not having to get a load of other things at the same time)
- I want to get the new things, but don't want to get a lot of the basic pieces, as I already have a lot of KS1 basics; very hard to do that, with any kind of discount
- There was too much. I have limited money and I can't get all that I want
- I don't want LED or magnetic. Can't I have a stripped version of the encounter for cheaper?

Imho the way to solve all of these is through more modularity. There already is a lot in this KS, and full modularity is impossible (that would be: pick your pledge piece by piece), but I think there could be more.

What I think should be done:

- Encounters are very good. But the special parts should be separated from the basic pieces, so that one can pick both or either according to his needs. While this seems like asking to double the offer, in fact it isn't. I am asking to build the encounters as a combination of basic building blocks, so that you can decide if and which basic pieces picking, and get the bling as a separate part (at the right higher price).

As an example (I said this elsewhere, but maybe not everybody reads every single topic):
Zaltar: 1 Starter Dungeon + Zaltar's pack (that contains the special pieces) + optional (general) LED pack
Gorgon: 3 starter dungeon + Elevation package + Gorgon pack + optional (general) LED pack

If you look at the add-ons list, the "base building blocks" are already nearly there. There's a lot of add-ons that could be used this way (maybe tuning their numbers of course with this point of view, and surely making them on the smaller side, like "4 LED packs" rather than "8 LED packs"). For example, the various possible Vaulted Dungeon, Classic dungeon packs, Passages packs, Elevation packs, Daises packs, LED packs, and so on. Just try and build encounters as the sum of these basic add-ons.

I mean, let's say you asked Tobi: "ok, Tobi. I give you 1 Classic Pack (pick any), 1 Vaulted Pack (pick any), 1 Extra Pack (pick daises, or elevations, or curved walls, or whatever). Build me an encounter with those. Then if you need special pieces, here is the list (or feel free to suggest new ones you'd need), use them, in the relative quantities you want, you can also add one or two of these capstone piece; they will be the encounter pack. Then think of what you could add to bling it up with LEDs or magnetic packs. Those will be the suggestion to enhance the encounter, so that every encounter will have a base version, and a blinged up version if you also get the LED pack."

Do this 4 times.

Then do the same, but this time you're not limited to 1 basic pack, you can use 2. Then again for 3 basic, and maybe 2 features pack. Then for 5. These will be the bigger encounters.

In the end you will have 1 encounter pack for each encounter. Plus the usual basic and LED and magnetic pack, that you do anyway. No SKU added.

Doing things this way, someone who already has the basic, can pick all the encounter packs for much cheaper than what is possible now (and can access the special pieces and capstones more easily), then maybe a couple basic sets with the vaulted pieces, just to have that special areas.

A beginner can just pick the list of sets that is suggested, if starting from scratch, to build whatever encounter he wants. Not only this, but let's say I am on a limited budget, and I like the Gorgon Tier. As suggested, I buy 3 basic sets, an elevation pack, the Gorgon pack, even one LED pack to bling it up. I am already satisfied, but then I look at the other encounter, and see that, to build Zaltar, I do not need to buy all the sets needed to build it. "Hey, I already have the basic pack! So, If I just add the Zaltar Pack, I can build that different encounter for much cheaper! Sure, I won't be able to have out both Gorgon and Zaltar at the same time, but with my limited budget I wasn't planning on that anyway, it's ok building rooms one at a time, I will get more basic packs in the shop." Then he looks and see that he also has the basics for the Arcane Alcove! and the AA package is really cheap! I can get that too!

In my opinion this would really show the beginner the spirit of DF, that is: you're not just buying a diorama. You're buying modular pieces that, with a few changes, can be used to create loads of different setups. He might even think "Uhm, I wonder if I mix pieces from different sets what I can come up with..."

- Stretch goals: at this point, it's ok to link them to the Encounters packages, since these packages got much cheaper. In lesser quantities of course, since the encounter packages got cheaper.

- Discount: my opinion is that you could link the discount to the pledge amount. The more you pledge (whatever you get) the more discount. You can hand out the discount in the form of extra credit in the pledge manager, so it doesn't need to be calculated by the backer when he pledges, but it will be additional funds to spend on things in the manager, calculated automatically by (easy) software. Since the discount won't probably be exactly the cost of something else, people will probably even add something in the manager to round up the numbers. And given you're adding something, well, might as well add a little more and also get that other thing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As an aside, my personal difficulty in this KS is that I am a newcomer and I don't have loads of KS1. I want to get it all, but would greatly prefer a much greater proportion of classic pieces, that I think are far more general. I do want the basic vaulted pieces; I just don't want 91 Vaulted Walls and 21 Classic Walls, would much rather prefer like 60 Classic and 52 Vaulted.

But all the stretches and discounts are tied to the encounters, and all the encounters contain lots of Vaulted... So if I build a pledge like I want, it costs a lot more that say the DoD. Or on the other hand, spending the equivalent of the DoD gives me a lot less pieces. And I mean a lot.

So I am strangely in the same position as those who have 20 KS1 sets: I want less Vaulted (would get Classic instead) :-)

Have a nice day!
Here;s the problem with this.

If you have 10 encounters, simple, 10 packages. At most one packing line (or one scheduled period on the packing line) for each.

If you have 10 packages, and each has 2 sub-components, you now have 3x the packing lines
--1 for the b asic
--1 for subassemly A only
--1 For subassembly B only.
When putting an ORDER togegther, this problem multiplies by the number of Encounters. So someone who picks 5 encounters has....you do the math.

The logistics of packing do NOT go up proportionately (linearly) with each step of complexity. They go up logarithmically. And quickly - long before reaching anything close to allowing buyers to pick each piece - become economically impossible for a companyh in DwF 's position. The factory won't support it.

And if they did it woould cost too much.

The Least Weasel
Totus KS Delenda Sunt
WeaselWarGod

GODofwar
Minotaur
Minotaur
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:46 pm
Location: Midwest

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by GODofwar » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:01 pm

kmj9907 wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:43 am
Stormfury wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:47 pm
Mobius wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:43 pm
I know it doesn't make financial sense for DF to run multiple KS projects per year, but I would have been all over Burrows if they were a small KS on their own 6 months from now, but I had to skip them here and will likely never get any of them (there's already too many other things I need to catch up on from the DF store).
Doesn't this suggest it DOES make financial sense? I'd prefer 2 a year with a significantly smaller piece count than 1 massive one per year TBH. Like you I'd buy into Burrows 6 months from now, but as it is I'm passing.
While I wouldn't mind two smaller KS's per year, I think the much bigger issue is the mental and emotion strain of running a KS. Some companies, like CMON and Reaper, are large and can conduct it more as typical business, rather than a passion project. But DF is small and relies on the dedication of a number of people. CMON, I think, doesn't have to care if a dozen people start screaming from the rooftops how they don't like how things are going in a campaign; it'll still have 15,000 backers and make millions, whatever Eric Lang designed game it is. DF does have to care, and deal with and respond to every little issue in some way. DF has people like Knightess and Geekjeff and Lady Sabelle and Elye there at all hours of the day to field the myriad questions that arise. Running a KS is highly stressful and extremely intrusive to a person's life... I have no doubt it takes over their lives. If the DF folks say "no way we're doing two of these a year!" I completely understand. Financial sense isn't the only sense we have to worry about.
Boy, thanks for bringing this up. I have had extensive contacts with Jenney and DF Suzy in the past, as well as a few others less intensively, and these folks deserve our non-material support. Remember the livestream where Nate announced one of the staff (Tobi? ) got engaged...and it got delayed b/c she was never home due to the KS??

Two a year could be family-wrecking. Everything has costs, and those costs always include the intangible human ones. I tell civil lawsuit clients they will pay a big emotional price during the suit. They ALWAYS laugh it off, and they ALWAYS tell me later they wish they had believed it. KS is more intense than a lawsuit, but has all the extensive prep time and tail work a lawsuit does.

Think of this when asking for something that adds to their load. Take care of your people - something every NCO and officer learns.

The Least Weasel
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, and I want more Sabelle sculpts..
WeaselWarGod

GODofwar
Minotaur
Minotaur
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:46 pm
Location: Midwest

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by GODofwar » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:55 pm

kmj9907 wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:33 am
GODofwar wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:32 pm
Two simple examples.
ONE Trog, Dan, ranted and ranted about a Cages set. he got it.
A few Commenters ranted and ranted about a Big Box with a usable surface on the lid. They got it.
To my knowledge you are incorrect about both of these examples. Based on my understanding of the flow of conversation, a cages add-on was always planned.

We simply have different memories. Very early on Dan started his cage campaign. Eventually it was announced there would be a cage AO. I thought the timing suggested Dan was a major influence. But I could easily be wrong about timing and the influence. Its an inference based on partial data.

Yes, Dan asked for it every day, even long after Nate told him it would be released on the 10th... but there is no evidence that DF was catering to him in any way.

I would not call this 'catering' - I call it 'responsiveness'.

Moreover, there is plenty of evidence of DF saying "no" to requests for specific add-on compositions.

Of course there is. Saying YES to all requests would bankrupt DwF. We agree on this.

The elevation platform was not a new piece that was requested during this Kickstarter. That was designed and introduced by DF from the beginning. I'd like to see the "rants" you're referring to. Some of us definitely requested that the lid be made usable -- not a new piece, just a design request for an object they didn't even have a working prototype for. (They mentioned on a few occasions, they were waiting to receive the prototype -- they couldn't comment on how many pieces it would hold, because they didn't know what it would look like exactly.) I was one of those people, and when I was told it wouldn't be done, I stopped asking. I never ranted. But new backers kept showing up asking why the lid wasn't playable. DF reconsidered, and changed the design. I love them for that; you're right that it is a prime example of them listening and being responsive.

I don't mean 'rant' to be negative. Most of the Trogs use it in a pretty neutral way. I did not mean it to insult you.
My point was exactly what you make - that the fan rants persuaded DwF to redesign the lid.


However, it in no way increased the complexity or piece count of the campaign. It turned an expensive, yet modestly functional piece (adding 3/8" elevation to the platform) into a highly function piece (either adding 3/8" elevation to the platform OR adding 121 square inches of playable space and 144 square inches of coverage to your setup) at what I assume to me a small, possibly negligible increase in price.

Concur on all points. I don't happen to want the Box (I use JYD foam pieces) but I can see its utility. I can also see where it could be a drop-in with prebuilt dungeon rooms inside, which could be sweet.

You may not care much about the concerns of your fellow backers, but it's a two way street... if you don't give a damn about others' thoughts, don't expect them to pay any attention to yours. And if you do, at least take some care in getting the facts straight.

I think I had my facts reasonably straight...the main point being that DwF does listen.
I don't believe disagreement or additional comment signal lack of concern about fellow backers' interests. However, I tend to present what I see as important, or comment on others' interests, not champion them. That's up to the specific interest holder, as far as I'm concerned.
Not sure why you felt the need to comment as you did, but I hope this at least partly answers your issues with my post.

Cheers.

The Least Weasel
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, and Sabelle's talent is bankrupting me. I Intend to lodge a complaint with the Witchhunter
WeaselWarGod

User avatar
Rabbit Burner
Minotaur
Minotaur
Posts: 1229
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:14 am
Location: Ely Cambridgeshire UK

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:09 pm

I'm in for Hugs :)

Feel the need to post something about Players (Users) and Collectors, having been both.
Along the lines of DF making cool table top terrain for players not collectors. Nothing too complex or deep - and probably helps just me understand the mindset that I believe DF has.
I have every right to be wrong but the Bunny Hive mind is all seeing...........
I am the Game and I want to Play

User avatar
fstkfstk
Orc
Orc
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:36 pm
Location: DC Area

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by fstkfstk » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:47 pm

I want everyone to roll a dexterity save. Everyone who fails is eaten by snakes in a pit.

Muhahahahaha.
DW, Chancellor of Valoria, Formally Privy Councilor of Valoria

kmj9907
Orc
Orc
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:18 pm

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kmj9907 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:24 pm

I'm all for virtual hugs. If we ever meet in personal, I'll happily shake hands. :-)

User avatar
AnimeSensei
Minotaur Lord
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 3535
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:03 pm
Location: South Weber, UT

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by AnimeSensei » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:55 pm

I think it's group hug time.

Emotions are high. This forum is typically one where we get along without much contention. I hope we can go back to that.
106 Resin and 159 Dwarvenite Sets/Packs Owned

Talistran
Orc
Orc
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:52 pm

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Talistran » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:51 pm

kmj9907 wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:33 am
GODofwar wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:32 pm
Two simple examples.

ONE Trog, Dan, ranted and ranted about a Cages set. he got it.

A few Commenters ranted and ranted about a Big Box with a usable surface on the lid. They got it.
To my knowledge you are incorrect about both of these examples. Based on my understanding of the flow of conversation, a cages add-on was always planned. Yes, Dan asked for it every day, even long after Nate told him it would be released on the 10th... but there is no evidence that DF was catering to him in any way. Moreover, there is plenty of evidence of DF saying "no" to requests for specific add-on compositions.

The elevation platform was not a new piece that was requested during this Kickstarter. That was designed and introduced by DF from the beginning. I'd like to see the "rants" you're referring to. Some of us definitely requested that the lid be made usable -- not a new piece, just a design request for an object they didn't even have a working prototype for. (They mentioned on a few occasions, they were waiting to receive the prototype -- they couldn't comment on how many pieces it would hold, because they didn't know what it would look like exactly.) I was one of those people, and when I was told it wouldn't be done, I stopped asking. I never ranted. But new backers kept showing up asking why the lid wasn't playable. DF reconsidered, and changed the design. I love them for that; you're right that it is a prime example of them listening and being responsive. However, it in no way increased the complexity or piece count of the campaign. It turned an expensive, yet modestly functional piece (adding 3/8" elevation to the platform) into a highly function piece (either adding 3/8" elevation to the platform OR adding 121 square inches of playable space and 144 square inches of coverage to your setup) at what I assume to me a small, possibly negligible increase in price.

You may not care much about the concerns of your fellow backers, but it's a two way street... if you don't give a damn about others' thoughts, don't expect them to pay any attention to yours. And if you do, at least take some care in getting the facts straight.
Great response, very well done. I don't bother replying to him because of his rudeness.

Talistran
Orc
Orc
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:52 pm

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Talistran » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:48 pm

Kryzsko wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:51 pm
The one big improvement should be no encounter exclusives. I hate those and I am getting an unpainted DoD. They are not fair to backers with a small budget and to collectors who backed the older projects and don't need a ton of the new pieces. People should not have to spend $2550 to get all the exclusive pieces.

Reaper does no exclusives in their KS projects and does just fine.

The next KS should be more long time collector friendly.
They still have time this year. They could add ONE pack to the PM and make it acceptable to collectors. I'll spend the hours it will take to write it up over the next few days.

Indignation
Kobold
Kobold
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:28 pm

Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Indignation » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:28 pm

Why is it called a chase piece

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ashgamer, gdmcbride and 2 guests