What Can We Improve for KS6?

hellay
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by hellay » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:57 am

To be clear about comments taken as complaints.
I loved the ks5, I pledge exactly the budget I planned and got everything (dod + some extra ) so I am not frustrated at all and think many comments here are not either.

We are trying here to find objective pro and con to make next year even better :)

What I meant about number of pieces / complexity is that to me, more stuff doesn't mean better as we are not magically able to buy and use infinite content.
I had a pledge score and amount that didn't t change and would not even if less diversity. I would simply take more stock and versions (marble jade etc) and personally will still be able to budget some CB and cavern later in year. BUT I try to step back and have a global view because I know my budget is not the same as all, I am happy if we expand DF popularity and backers numbers. Because to me, more customers is less chances of stopping the flow of money + more money in the long run too, = DF ability to stay healthy = more years and freedom of creating stuff for years to come.
More creativity come when we are free of the business danger zone and can breathe.

Overall, there is already a lot of goodness in ks5 and thanks again Nate and all team for it.

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evandariel
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by evandariel » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:29 am

kmj9907 wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:29 am
DF had to explain a number of times that there were *more* SGs this time, because it didn't actually feel that way... so if DF was being more generous, but it didn't actually feel that way to backers, then what is the point?
I would prefer that this stop being said/explained, as it's wrong. I have my own issues with SG and the way they were parsed, and how previous backers got locked out of all but a few based on what encounters they got, especially capstone SG, but for any returning backer of KS1 or KS2, there were most certainly, factually, not more SG.

Example, a painted DoD (3600) gave 181 SG pieces. There were 52 unique SGs, 40 if you don't count the capstones.

In KS1, 3650 would buy you 50 painted sets, giving 1800 SG pieces, with 17 unique SGs. (2013)
In KS2, 3500 would buy you 40 painted sets, giving 1120 SG pieces, with 20 unique SGs. (2014)

Obviously, variety (number of molds), complexity (magnets/leds), size, etc add to the cost. But that's why people complain about the scope. 30 unique SGs would most certainly have been cheaper to produce and cheaper to buy than 52. And from a purely monetary per piece perspective, its $19.88 per SG in the DoD. It was $2.02 per SG in KS1 and $3.12 per SG in KS2.

I am not saying DF did anything wrong, and I am sure they were overly generous on SG in KS1. Prices go up, things change, it may not have been sustainable. All good reasons to shift away from SGs and such. I am just trying to point out that telling a random KS1/2 backer that SG are more generous and that there are more would be misleading and could lead to a bad image.

That said, I love DF, love their KSes, and will be in every one, even if it was the cheapest pledge level. I think it's important for them to hear, because the last thing I want is for someone to walk away thinking of DF as lying, misleading, or fleecing. Because they don't do those things (obviously).
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Heresy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:09 am

This is my first DF Kickstarter but I have done many others and I thought this was as well run as any I have done. Great communication (there seemed to be someone on the forum answering questions 24x7), multiple live shows and walkthrough videos, a huge number of stretch goals and a great product.

Sure I spent more than I was planning but it's not DFs fault that they can make a large number of great products, that is their business.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Stormfury » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:51 am

zenmaster wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:47 am
For example, if there weren't so many sets in this KS, I may have been excited about the burrows. As is, they were an easy pass, compared to the other stuff, and I have easily been conditioned to feel little excitement over them. If the Khril Colony had been a separate theme in a lower-scope, well-themed campaign, I would have purchased it no question. In this campaign, I wrote it off almost immediately in lieu of other stuff and will likely never get it with the unending cycle of massive DF KSes every year. Lost sales right there.
I fall into the same bucket with regard to this. Had Khrii and Terrain Trays been in a different smaller kickstarter both would have been a purchase for me but given how much stuff and the cost of doing just one of those two right, I had to just concede to write them off.
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kmj9907 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:29 am

kodiakbear wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:33 am


After asking what they can do to improve for their next KS it must be strange for DF to have their most successful dollar wise KS and third most successful KS by number of backers bringing out such anger and frustration.

If backer numbers and the pledge total had remand as low as Castles for this KS, it might make more sense but by number of backers this was better than City so if so many people pledged why so much anger. I guess people are angry they just can not get it all or just everything they want in one box.
I don't think there's actually too much anger. There is frustration, but I feel the forums (and comments) always have people expressing frustration. Frustration is always extant on the internet and, to some extent, a necessary evil tied into Dwarven Forge's business model (which may be the only model by which they can survive). Look at the posts during the campaign asking why *this* piece was only available with *all those other* pieces, and so on... look at the people who want DF to step back from magnets, or keep LEDs out of base pledges, the veterans who don't want any more floors, etc. This is to say nothing of the frustration that arises between each other, as we post here... well, this is a forum on the internet. Overall, I think it's been remarkably civil.

I would say the vast majority of us are not actually angry about KS5. (Okay, I did express anger that a backer can't get Syssuul without spending $350), Overall we are delighted with the amazing and beautiful creativity that is being made available to us and with the overall smoothness, preparation, and professionalism of KS5. I've never seen so many people say "Best Kickstarter campaign I've ever taken part in!" as I have with KS5. The vast majority of us have depthless appreciation for Stefan, Nate, Jay, and the whole team, and their amazing efforts and teamwork. The vast majority of us (at least those of us here on the forums) are going to be there for KS6 and KS7, and so on... because we know DF will do good things (and because we're addicted to dwarvenite!). We will contribute what we can, though in some cases that may only be token, due to personal circumstances or how we view the campaigns. DF will have our support, but most of us are not rich and they also can't squeeze blood from a stone, so they do need to keep pulling in new backers and finding ways to make their product accessible to more casual gamers. I believe they know this full well, and want to work toward reversing the trend in backer numbers (to which KS5 was a great stride!), which is why Nate started a thread asking about improvements.

This was the best run DF campaign, and one of the best run I've seen overall. But it wasn't perfect, and Nate asked what can be improved. I don't believe he just meant for us to tell him the easy things, like "make the live streams clearer". We are being honest about our feelings, and I hope nobody at DF would expect any different. There were kinks, and there were things that let a number of people down at the end (or in some cases throughout)... not all of us were let down by the same thing, and not all of those things could have been avoided at all, but we all want to express our thoughts and concerns, so that DF can be aware of it, and if not change possibly at least address it.

Further thoughts on improvement:

1.One place there is room for improvement, as @kodiakbear expressed, is about communication. How do you communicate what kind of campaign it will be? How do you communicate during the campaign when the structure will change (when the bonanzas stopped, and when low pledges stopped receiving SGs) -- it's not that the SGs were terribly unbalanced in the end (tho lever chamber and acid bath could use some love), it was how they came out that led to a perceived imbalance -- possibly a consequence of structuring them the way they did, but that's another conversation. One thing that can be improved is how these things are communicated, ahead of times and through official channels, not just in the comments, in order to manage expectations. Managing expectations is the best way to avoid let-downs. People saw force wall pack, and thought maybe there would be an ossuary pack... "no ossuary pack? now I'm sad." (Maybe DF could allow voting on the structure of the packs, to some extent? Which things should get their own packs, which should be packaged together? A pitfall of the packaging structure is that invariably people have to take some, in some cases, many things they don't want in order to get what they do... this does not lead to satisfaction. Voting might help improve overall satisfaction with that process. People might have voted for 8 or 10 elevation block packs instead of 16, a change they realized with the puzzle floors when they released them.)


2. On another note, I've been convinced that DF should seek a more equitable SG approach as many have been asking for. I don't know what works best, but for the people spending thousands of dollars on add-ons should get to take part in the SG fun... they should see the same benefit as those of us who pledge at other levels, or are getting a lot of encounters... in some way, benefits should be proportional to the amount pledged overall. Add-ons have become an increasingly large part of DFs revenues (I think), and that should be rewarded. Given that DF decided to break SGs down by encounters this time, there may be some way to just add in another (in this case a 16th) category, for SGs based on add-on spending. I don't know if the "points" system is a good idea, but there must be something workable. Moreover, while I thought the encounter SGs worked wonderfully, were beautifully thematic, and were complete without SGs, it turns out that a lot of people didn't feel this way. The structure led people to kind of retroactively feel the encounters were incomplete without the SGs, because the SGs were *too* tightly themed to the encounters, as if the pieces couldn't be used without them. Moreover the structure led to perceived imbalances in SGs even for people who pledged at SG-receiving levels. There was a fair amount of "well, this milestone is irrelevant to me, since I'm not getting that anyway." DF had to explain a number of times that there were *more* SGs this time, because it didn't actually feel that way... so if DF was being more generous, but it didn't actually feel that way to backers, then what is the point?

3. For live streams, I love the idea proposed of filming builds on the fly; I think that's a great idea. Another idea might be to ask people to suggest builds, or specific pieces to show off, in the comments of an update prior to the live stream. That way you folks can gather what you know you'll need ahead of time, and maybe prebuild a few sets. There were a number of times a piece was asked for, and it had to be gotten from another room. Those things could have been right there and ready.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by zenmaster » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:47 am

Stormfury wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:44 pm
koraldon wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:56 pm
kitenerd wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:45 pm
It is hard to reign in creativity and i know there are a LOT of good ideas in Valoria, but DF really needs to make an effort to limit scope.

Most backers come with a budget. Most of us go over. But the fact is if you introduce 75 new sculpts and i drop $1,000 you will make more money than if you introduce 150 new sculpts and i drop $1,000.
+1
Right now there is a lot to catch up from older sets. I know that I have enough stuff from KS3 & KS5 I still want to buy.
I don't think this point can be re-iterated enough. A lot of us were struggling with the fact that we'd have to shell out 3-4k to get all the cool new unique pieces. Many of us are still trying to complete our Castles and even some CBS sets.

Additionally, I don't see the point in having so many sculpts when a several were made incredibly hard to acquire.
I cannot echo the above observations enough. The scope needs to be reigned in. Purchase fatigue has already set in for me. Soon, storage/organization fatigue and find-the-right-piece fatigue will set in as well. I want to make some webstore purchases to round out CBS and Castles builds, but it is impossible to prioritize when there is so much KS5 stuff to pledge for right now for the shipping discount and ltd. edition sets. The webstore is also often out of stock, and with so many new sets each year, I am not clear on the availability of sets I want later. Please just take a breather at some point. You will probably make a lot more profit in the end doing that.

For example, if there weren't so many sets in this KS, I may have been excited about the burrows. As is, they were an easy pass, compared to the other stuff, and I have easily been conditioned to feel little excitement over them. If the Khril Colony had been a separate theme in a lower-scope, well-themed campaign, I would have purchased it no question. In this campaign, I wrote it off almost immediately in lieu of other stuff and will likely never get it with the unending cycle of massive DF KSes every year. Lost sales right there.

I am also still not too pleased with the thrones from last year's KS. Adopting the "exclusive figure for massive buyers" strategy has left a sour taste in my mouth. I have spent A LOT on DF KS over the last 3 years, and then to see pieces that could feature well in a campaign be made exclusive to buyers with enormous capacities for storage and spending did not sit well. I would have happily paid well for those thrones on their own or in small themed packs, but simply do not have the space, need, or budget for the literally dozens of useless pieces I would have had to pay for to get them. More lost sales and added customer disappointment to boot.

I have no illusions or desire to collect everything and pass on some products easily, but useful pieces for campaigns that Dwarven Forge does not do otherwise should not be held aloft out of reach of loyal customers.
Frankly, the thrones from KS4 made me less of a loyal customer.

The many good things from this campaign:

Organization and Preparation - INFINITELY better than KS4, which was frankly an abysmally organized campaign

Excellent Videos, build examples, resources all PREPARED ahead of time was a refreshing change.
I will echo others' call for more pictures too.

Structure - I appreciated greatly the options provided for packaged sets and add=on sets. I think it helped both newer buyers and those with large collections.

However, the main issue I had with the structure was the incessant stream of encounters and add-ons. Count me as one who just wants to see what you have to offer, so I can decide what I want. I don't need slow rollouts, I hate the stupid "beans" as well. I had no incentive to follow the campaign or figure things out during the campaign because any pledge ideas and budgets would become useless upon the release of the next sets. I put a placeho;lder pledge in on the first day, and checked in again on the last day. I would have engaged more frankly if more sets had been just shown upfront.

Thanks a lot for the care that DF has shown to its customers. You asked for suggestions on improvements, and I have given them.
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:00 am

Started reading all the posts in this thread - but then realised 'I have a life' ;) and what others think will not change my opinion that I have been asked to share :)
The personal improvements are more selfish improvements I'd like to see just for me and/or others in Europe :)

Improve for KSVI:
- video quality of the live feeds - was not as good as previous years and failed to show the majesty of Toby's builds
- as much as I love all the options, in two years (3KSers) I have spent more on DF than cars and even my laptops. So I would echo the sentiment of smaller scope.
- don't reveal the SGs to far in advance - never ever like this - I don't want to see that the next SG I am interested in is over a million dollars away - shadows would be better if there is a need to show where the SGs are set.
- The last add-ons should to be revealed with about a week to go - gives everyone time to finalise their pledge and adds some wriggle room :)
- Video Walkthroughs have them ready as soon as the encounter/add-on is revealed and have one for each add-on
- and please please put in the FAQ or on the very top of the page 'YES YOU CAN UP YOUR PLEDGE IN THE PLEDGE MANAGER!'. That asked so many times in the comments and given there were over 20k comments it was difficult to find if it had been answered before.

Personal improvements for KSVI
- Livefeeds to be earlier in the day and on Fridays or Saturdays so us in Europe can partake in more easily - say starting 11pm UTC (or GMT as it should still be called ;) on a Friday.

Things not to Change in KSVI
- keep the add-ons coming each day - this makes the daily visit to the KS much more exciting :)
- video walkthroughs - loved those
- example builds in the live streams (just sort the quality out)
- the constant DF presence in the Comments - helped everyone feel that DF were listening and that we were all part of the KS.
- the regular updates obviously coincided with encounter/add-on release but were very welcome
- don't stop having fun on the Livefeeds - don't make it a sterile Q&A session - keep it organic and keep showing us how excited you guys are about this stuff.

Other musings - I felt again that this KS was as complicated as backers wanted to make it. If you wanted cool stuff it was simple - if you wanted to maximise coverage or concerned about a particular piece(s) then it got complicated, real complicated.
So much of this stuff is subjective and determined by the individuals needs, the same applies for DF. There is no keeping everyone happy, this KS got closer to that happy medium that the previous 2 (CBS & Castles) I backed.

For me a good KS is about the experience as well as the goods, DF KSers are much more an experience than most and the gradual reveals, constant comment interaction and livestreams made this the best experience I have had in a KS.

The biggest tell for me was in the comments section, this year was the most positive I have seen in the last 3 KSers. This tells me DF have got closer to the Holy Grail of a perfect KS - they will never get the perfect KS no one will, but KSV was as close as they have got in the last 3 - so great job. Looking forward to next year - but happy its a year away ;)

One last thing, on beans - prefer less beans - the horror!!!! I prefer to be surprised, as I state above its about the KS experience - loved the burrows encounter - how cool would it have been if we did not know what that encounter was even called. I loved to be surprised and too many beans is like film previews - you end up watching waiting for the parts you know is coming, rather than enjoying the movie.

One last last thing to change for KSVI
More RUINS!!!!!!!
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kodiakbear » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:33 am

AnimeSensei wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:05 am
I don't think DF wants a thread full of people getting frustrated with each other; they wanted thread containing feedback for what they can do better.
After asking what they can do to improve for their next KS it must be strange for DF to have their most successful dollar wise KS and third most successful KS by number of backers bringing out such anger and frustration.

If backer numbers and the pledge total had remand as low as Castles for this KS, it might make more sense but by number of backers this was better than City so if so many people pledged why so much anger. I guess people are angry they just can not get it all or just everything they want in one box.

The only big thing I think DF messed up on was telling us late last year and early this year that this KS was going to be simple and then having a KS with so many awesome things like Dungeon items and Burrows and Jade Forsaken Temple.

Perhaps if they know the piece count for KS6 on Jan 1st they should tell us so we know how much awesome trouble we are in for KS6.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by AnimeSensei » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:05 am

I don't think DF wants a thread full of people getting frustrated with each other; they wanted thread containing feedback for what they can do better. These forums are typically a very nice place. I'm sure we can all get along. :)

To be honest, while I am in the club that feels this scope was too large, I have to admit that DF made a TON of money this time around. They are a company first and foremost, so we can say this was a success. I expect KS6 to be similar as this formula seemed to work. I may not like having to spend $3k+ each year and I might just drop out or drop my pledge, but obviously they found a sweet spot. Dungeons are always the sets with the most interest, so I expect KS6 might be a lower pledge total, but I think the model was proven this KS.
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by evandariel » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:18 pm

Sigma, ok so D2 was 120 pieces or so. Same as 3 KS1 sets? No. More variety, but you are talking about 80+ price difference just with unpainted and 210 pieces. Yes, more bling, more variety, magnetic or led stuff, but I'm sure it affects perceived value. And for a previous backer a lot of those 120ish pieces are walls/floors we don't want :)

Not trying to diss DF, just statin' the facts. And hopefully the feedback helps when every subsequent KS will have more backers with existing tiles and less with none.
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