Price in the webstore

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Phoenix Rising » Sat May 26, 2018 5:34 pm

Kryzsko wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 5:27 pm
geekjeff wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:38 pm
Swiftbrook wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:35 pm
Just so we are comparing dungeon walls to dungeon walls, when KS V sets appear in the web store, will the stretch goal pieces be included?
Yes, that is the plan.
With the set up of KS5 stretch goals I would think they would have to be included. There are many pieces that are essential to each encounter.
Also, the factory is shipping complete encounter boxes; harder to take stuff out in that case.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 1:49 am

Kryzsko wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 5:27 pm
geekjeff wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:38 pm
Swiftbrook wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:35 pm
Just so we are comparing dungeon walls to dungeon walls, when KS V sets appear in the web store, will the stretch goal pieces be included?
Yes, that is the plan.
With the set up of KS5 stretch goals I would think they would have to be included. There are many pieces that are essential to each encounter.
Agreed that they are essential. Which is why I believe that they really are not stretch goals. They were planned from the start to be part of the encounter.

People who bought Encounters 1-3 or 1-6 were paying for DoD stretch goals, things they would never be able to partake of.

While I loved the KS5 Encounters in many ways, the stretch goal system of KS5 was NOT one that I enjoyed and thought that it was counter-intuitive and demoralizing.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by kodiakbear » Sun May 27, 2018 2:42 am

Talistran wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 1:49 am
While I loved the KS5 Encounters in many ways, the stretch goal system of KS5 was NOT one that I enjoyed and thought that it was counter-intuitive and demoralizing.
Pretty much no matter how they do it some of us pledgers are not happy.


But I will agree they needed to do a better job of making the encounters look complete at the start and then even more awesome as the stretch goals are added. Having any pictures out at the start showing things that either we might not get or will get two or three weeks in makes the stretch goals less special.


If they do not think a encounter will work without something it should not be a stretch goal.


Or in AS Seen ON TV speak totally sell the product as is and then say but wait there's more when a stretch goal is met.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Rabbit Burner » Sun May 27, 2018 7:35 am

kodiakbear wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 2:42 am
Talistran wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 1:49 am
While I loved the KS5 Encounters in many ways, the stretch goal system of KS5 was NOT one that I enjoyed and thought that it was counter-intuitive and demoralizing.
Pretty much no matter how they do it some of us pledgers are not happy.


But I will agree they needed to do a better job of making the encounters look complete at the start and then even more awesome as the stretch goals are added. Having any pictures out at the start showing things that either we might not get or will get two or three weeks in makes the stretch goals less special.


If they do not think a encounter will work without something it should not be a stretch goal.


Or in AS Seen ON TV speak totally sell the product as is and then say but wait there's more when a stretch goal is met.
With kb on this one - not going to make all backers happy all the time.

SGs are not something we worry about, you get them or you don't, very difficult for one backer to make a direct difference (you can pledge more and advertise but that's about it).

Do agree that SGs should not be essential to any encounter or be in any initial encounter pictures.

The Golems for us were a great example of a good SG as they were not essential to Gorton Tiers and did not appear in any pictures.

The problem that arises with the encounter method, as we see it, is that only those that get the encounter gets its SGs. So backers when looking at the SG road map can get quite demotivated when the next SGs are not in their encounters.
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by dice4hire » Sun May 27, 2018 7:51 am

I am also going to be very interested in how DF does SG in the next KS. I liked KSI and KSII and KSIV overall for stretch goals. We got a smattering of new interesting pieces. KSIII was to some extent ok, but the first half million dollars or so (floors and walls and posts) were not really stretch goals. Later SG were good in KSIII.

KSV was not stretch goals by any stretch of the imagination. They just took the 1.75 million dollar(or maybe more likely 1.5) of pledging and figured out what they could make in an encounter at about that level. Then they trimmed pieces out and handed them out as stretch goals.

I know it was the first real encounter set and I hope the onex in KSVI are st from the beginning and get some interesting pieces after that. Or something. DF said stretch goals might not be tied to the encounters, personally I hope they are attached to something like a trove, a pile of miscellaneous pieces.

What I really really hope is that we can just plain buy stretch goal sets like people have been asking for for a long time. Hand some out free for pledge levels or the like but also let people buy them, even in the PM so DF knows exactly what they cost.
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Seraphis the Bland » Sun May 27, 2018 11:43 am

I would have bought that Eldritch Pool if it had been a separate piece. I didn't need more walls, so I didn't buy the encounter. I like the idea of free stretch goals based upon how much you spend in total (earn points towards purchase) and also be able to buy them perhaps in a grouping if you didn't spend that much during the KS (you already have a million pieces). We'll see what they do in KS6.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm

Rabbit Burner wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:35 am
The problem that arises with the [KS5 SG] encounter method, as we see it, is that only those that get the encounter gets its SGs. So backers when looking at the SG road map can get quite demotivated when the next SGs are not in their encounters.
Exactly what I was talking about above as "demoralizing." Well said.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 7:52 pm

Seraphis the Bland wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:43 am
I would have bought that Eldritch Pool if it had been a separate piece. I didn't need more walls, so I didn't buy the encounter.
Yah, I would have bought 12 of the pools as a separate piece... probably more to mod with monsters coming out. That $1.81 piece to manufacture... could have been sold as a set for $25 for 4 and we would have bought thousands of them.

The Eldritch pool is the PERFECT example of how I think the DF "capstone" / hard to get piece business model is costing DF money. They know they took a desired piece and made it scarce. I know they tried, and I know they can't add separate packs for everything. They even added it to a "Wicked" pack (with a bunch of other things that I didn't necessary want 12 of at $100 per pack, even though I wanted 12 pools) to try and make it more accessible. But this one screamed for a 2 pack or 4 pack add-on because of all the customization that could be EASILY done to it. Pour some resin water, pour some blood pools, lava, acid, have monsters coming out of those things. Cut out the circle, and be able to use negative space images below it. Make it into a summoning circle opening up, or a portal. See, you need 12 just for variety, let alone a few of them in the same setup as part of a puzzle (in order to get the door open, you have to have a character standing in each of 4 pools in separate corners of a large chamber... one filled with lava, water, acid, black tar, etc... as the door opens, a monster attacks from each pool).

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by pacarat » Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm

The more they can sell of any piece, the more cost effective it is to make that mold. Why would anyone want to limit sales of _any_ piece by limiting its availability to one (or even a few) encounter(s), SG, or as a single capstone?

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm

dice4hire wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:51 am
I am also going to be very interested in how DF does SG in the next KS. I liked KSI and KSII and KSIV overall for stretch goals. We got a smattering of new interesting pieces. KSIII was to some extent ok, but the first half million dollars or so (floors and walls and posts) were not really stretch goals. Later SG were good in KSIII.
Agreed on all fronts. Although, KS1 and KS2 stretch goals actually made me excited to help recruit and spend more... while the others seemed organic and were "just happening."
dice4hire wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:51 am
KSV was not stretch goals by any stretch of the imagination. They just took the 1.75 million dollar(or maybe more likely 1.5) of pledging and figured out what they could make in an encounter at about that level. Then they trimmed pieces out and handed them out as stretch goals.
Exactly. And your money was oftentimes not even helping you get a pledge goal as the PG was going towards encounters you were not even purchasing. Completely demoralizing.
dice4hire wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:51 am
I know it was the first real encounter set and I hope the onex in KSVI are st from the beginning and get some interesting pieces after that. Or something. DF said stretch goals might not be tied to the encounters, personally I hope they are attached to something like a trove, a pile of miscellaneous pieces.

What I really really hope is that we can just plain buy stretch goal sets like people have been asking for for a long time. Hand some out free for pledge levels or the like but also let people buy them, even in the PM so DF knows exactly what they cost.
They have tried the other styles of stretch goals. Maybe it is time to try this... a small pool of items (that grows bigger as the numbers go up) that are NOT AVAILABLE in other ways except as Stretch Goals... where you receive 1 set of SGs for every $400 (I'm making up a number) that you spend... and make them available as you say "during the PM" after costs have been established. But make sure we know they will be available during the PM so people don't have to spend mental resources being upset about how they wish they could get 4x of A or 7x of B ;)

So, to recap, Stretch Goals are:

1) A pool of unique items that have new things contributed every time we reach certain $$ goals as a Kickstarter

2) Assigned by how many multiples of $$X you spend (you get one for every $400 you spend).

3) Available for a TBD price during the pledge manager (and afterwards in the DF Store)


Think about the problems customers have had in the past with stretch goals:

A) Add-on buyers and purchases don't get them. (KS1, KS2, KS3, KS4, KS5)

B) Customers are contributing towards stretch goals they will never receive (above and beyond "add-on buyers" noted in #1). (KS5 primarily)

C) They don't seem substantial or subjectively "rewarding" (KS3, KS4, KS5)

D) They are non-exciting, utilitarian type pieces (e.g. half-walls, mini-stairs) that don't exactly pump the blood to throw money at your dancers... err, I mean Kickstarter. (some of KS3, some of KS4, a little in KS5)

E) Artificially increase the resale value of Kickstarter pledges against the Webstore versions (primarily KS1, but a little bit in KS2, KS3, KS4). In theory, DF should want to keep profit dollars for themselves as much as possible.


Anyways,
I really think that by having it as a "multiple of dollars spent" will be purchasing power into the customer's hand AND won't be demoralizing people who primarily are buying add-ons.

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