Price in the webstore

Talistran
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm

pacarat wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm
The more they can sell of any piece, the more cost effective it is to make that mold. Why would anyone want to limit sales of _any_ piece by limiting its availability to one (or even a few) encounter(s), SG, or as a single capstone?
Agreed. It is hugely demoralizing, especially to collectors who want a few of everything and hundreds of nothing. Many of us are reaching a saturation point. No more space to store dungeons of doom, no desire to spend $5,000 to get a little of everything just to sell or store the useless pieces. Their business model has to change if they want their loyal customers to continue buying. I think DF has to accept if we aren't going to be spending $5000 per Kickstarter anymore, they can get $1500-2000 by offering a collectors pack with a little bit of EVERYTHING (screw the mega whale capstones)... or they can have us buy a few hundred dollars worth of wicked packs. Their choice. But I know which way I would go if I were them.

However, there is a reasonable limit of how many "packs" they can offer. So I know they can't offer stand-alone packs of evertthing

But I have been suggesting that they put all the capstone pieces into a single pack and double/triple their normal profit margin on the pack and sell thousands of them for a long time. It is a win-win. That, plus a Dungeon of Doom Lite, would have solved a lot of the legitimate complaints about KS5 last year.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by kodiakbear » Sun May 27, 2018 8:57 pm

Talistran wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm
I think DF has to accept if we aren't going to be spending $5000 per Kickstarter anymore
I am not trying to disagree with you but lots of people said this after KS4 and then look at what happened in KS5.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Talistran » Sun May 27, 2018 10:30 pm

kodiakbear wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:57 pm
Talistran wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:15 pm
I think DF has to accept if we aren't going to be spending $5000 per Kickstarter anymore
I am not trying to disagree with you but lots of people said this after KS4 and then look at what happened in KS5.
Yep. Many of them did spend a lot and many of them didn't (anecdotal information from personal conversations. And then they went from the "worst" DF theme in history to the "best," which brought in a bunch of people and a kept people pledging. But, my KS5 pledge was 1/2 in price as my KS4 (and 10x my KS1 pledge). We're going to run out of space. We're going to run out of need for "basics." There is no denying that.

It's all good though. I just want what is best for DF, because ultimately it is good for all of us for them to be financially sound. I've bought, sold, and run companies far larger than DF... and all niche-market companies have certain things in common. They can't afford to leave money in the hands of their limited clientelle and they have to keep recruiting new blood (which is not easy in luxury markets, with limited client bases). But neither one of those things is sufficient alone. IMO, they have to stop pretending the options are only "whale" OR "sub-$1000 wicked sets". There is a middle ground that many of us would be happy to belong in, so long as they create a way to "collect it all" for a middle ground price.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by dice4hire » Mon May 28, 2018 4:46 am

I am not a gotta-have-everything collector but I would like a good variety of pieces because it is just cool. I am not really a fan of super capstone pieces like KSV was littered with either. A set of all the hard-to-get pieces would make sense to me.
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Law » Mon May 28, 2018 7:22 am

pacarat wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm
The more they can sell of any piece, the more cost effective it is to make that mold. Why would anyone want to limit sales of _any_ piece by limiting its availability to one (or even a few) encounter(s), SG, or as a single capstone?
This whole convo is kinda moot bc DF has made it clear that they won't be limiting the cool bling pieces to mega sets this time around. So -- yay, problem solved!

But (and I promise, I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I genuinely want to know) -- why aren't you persuaded by the reasoning that having exclusives drives up interest and sales?

You know the spiel -- SGs in general motivate people to keep pledging. If you can get enough people to budge from $200 to maybe $300, enough from $300 to ("aw, screw it!") $500, and enough people from $1800 to $2500 and so on, all because the elusive SG is soooo .... close.... then it's worth it.

Similarly, if the only way to get a capstone piece is to buy the $500 or $1000 set it comes with, then some people are going to say "well, I was in for so much already, and I really want that piece." If you can get it cheaper and easier another way, those large mega sets don't have the same appeal, and sell fewer units.

Really, the only way to know if this is a good way to do things or not is to crunch a lot of data, and to have a control group. Here's how many of the mega sets sold when the exclusive capstone was part of the deal, and here's how many sold without that. Here's how big the KS went with the limited SG goals, and here's how big it went when SGs were just more common pieces.

You may be right, making pieces more widely available could work out. The math could be that if 2000 customers buy a cheaper bling set you do far better than if only 200 buy your mega set with the exclusive capstone. But I don't know how anyone could really tell that without the data. Maybe you have the data, I don't know. I know a lot of dedicated forum trogs watch the KSs and track their performance down to the hour, so there are definitely some business majors and statistics folks up in here who can get very precise answers.

I admit I'm sympathetic because this stuff works on me. Before the KSs began, DF regularly offered incentives if you pre-ordered 3 of a new set. Three river sets gets you a boat, three lake sets gets you some lizardmen, three ROTA sets gets you a cool painted mosaic room. And I went for it every time. In each case I could always justify the extra sets -- it's DF, you can ALWAYS justify getting more -- but to be honest, without those incentives I probably wouldn't have. The river set, which only included one dead end, maybe I'd have sprung for two, so I could cap a stream at both ends or just make a small lake. But I doubt I'd have gotten three, certainly not all at once. Didn't need three ROTA wicked addition sets or three lake expansion sets either. Ended up with enough resin water to choke a horse! Maybe I'd have gotten more gradually over time -- but even knowing that made it more tempting ("if you're gonna end up paying for three and storing three eventually, why shoot yourself in the foot and miss the chance to get the exclusive piece?"). So -- I have anecdotal data that it CAN be a good business practice! Question is, obviously, whether they'd make more by selling fewer basic sets but making up for it by selling more sets that have these bling pieces in them. But, again, that's a data question -- doesn't seem to me that intuition or anecdotes really answer it.

I'm just curious about why you're not convinced of the effectiveness of the exclusive model.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by GardenDM » Mon May 28, 2018 11:34 am

@Law - I realize I'm answering a different question here, but my beef with KS5 wasn't that there were exclusives, but rather how they were gated by encounter instead of by total spend.

I would have preferred to see backer tiers (e.g. Squire@$200, Knight@$600, Champion@$1000, Hero@$1500) with SGs going to a certain tier or above (e.g. 1 free table and mini-dungeon to all backers at Knight and above), regardless of what you actually backed for. This would have created incentives and pressure to up your pledge ("wow, 5 free and exclusive items just for upping to Knight...well, I do really want some marble themed dungeon, so why not just add that now"). I know some folks hate "gold" systems, but I've seen it work well elsewhere and think it could work here too. It would also allow for some SGs to be for bonus "gold" instead of items (e.g. @ 1 million USD, all backers get an extra 10% gold to spend on items).

Anyway, nothing to do now but wait and see how it's handled for KS6 and hope for the best.

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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon May 28, 2018 4:50 pm

Talistran wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 pm

Anyways,
I really think that by having it as a "multiple of dollars spent" will be purchasing power into the customer's hand AND won't be demoralizing people who primarily are buying add-ons.
We go with that 😀

One thing we will say is that we think DF are not just about making money or they would provide many of what's been suggested. But we get the impression they do things for the drama and talking points. The two headed croc from the KSIII grab bag which they made available in KSV for example.

A DF KS is almost about the experience rather than the product..... wait....no of course it's about the product, but people actively look forward to the KS with little intention of buying much just to take part.

Have to admit to wanting those pools but did not want the encounter.
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by William » Mon May 28, 2018 5:49 pm

Rabbit Burner wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:50 pm
The two headed croc from the KSIII grab bag which they made available in KSV for example.
Available yes, but the only way is the ($129 UnP./$177P.) Encounter full of 28 new passage pieces that I don't want.
I know I could resell those pieces, but I've never tried selling anything. Plus at the time I was very low on expendable cash, so I barely even spent that much in total. (my problem, not any others)

I hope the new KS does some of this type thing a bit better. Break out packs of not only the new pieces, but packs that group similar new pieces from a few encounters that make sense together. Why not have a (or few) small Miniature pack(s) of the minis that are only included in the Encounters?
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by dice4hire » Mon May 28, 2018 6:05 pm

Law wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:22 am
This whole convo is kinda moot bc DF has made it clear that they won't be limiting the cool bling pieces to mega sets this time around. So -- yay, problem solved!
I really hope for this, but DF's track record on doing this is not very good.
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Re: Price in the webstore

Post by Kryzsko » Mon May 28, 2018 7:10 pm

I think the question of "Does having chase pieces increase pledges?" is the wrong question. The problem with that question is we have no data either way. KS1 and 2 did well without chase pieces. KS5 was the first dwarven forge KS to use chase pieces in a big way and we have no way of knowing if they had a major impact one way or the other. My personal guess is they neither helped nor hurt but who knows?

The better question is "Is having chase pieces a customer friendly practice?" I personally don't feel it is. I think there are only a few customer types that like chase pieces. The first are people who have tons of money and tons of storage space and plan to go all in any way. The other is Ebay resellers who want to break out the rare pieces and charge a big markup.

Who is punished the most by chase pieces? The first is longtime Dwarven Forge collectors. People who have bought a TON of Dwarven Forge products over the years and don't need an entire Dungeon of Doom but would like to be able to get all the cool new pieces. The second group is new collectors that don't have thousands of dollars to spend but would like to get all the little fun pieces.

I don't think this compares to pre-order bonuses. Everyone in the KS is already pre-ordering and most to the tune of hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Also to get the pre-order bonus you had to spend a few hundred dollars but to get all the painted KS5 chase pieces you needed to spend $3600. That is out of the realm of possibility for most people.

I am glad to hear that this does not sound like it will be the case in KS6.

Oh, and I did get a whole DoD in KS5 and was in no way influenced by the chase pieces. If the chase pieces would have been available in a separate pack it would have made no difference to me.

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