3D files of unreleased models?

bernyleung
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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by bernyleung » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:51 am

We are still in the infancy of personal 3D printing. For terrain, Dwarvenite clearly wins in the durability and painted option categories. However, they can't make molds for everything. Printing does offer ways to enhance the DF themes we love. But in the future, as costs come down and speeds go up, and materials get sturdier, 3D printing may become the next new standard of available terrain products.

I'll be making my first foray into 3D printing by mid-summer. Already will have some Egyptian-themed items to test the waters.

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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by kenshidark » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:28 pm

I should have been a little more clear in my statement, and you've partly made my point in your comment too. I was implying that if there is a legitimate product, such as the sewer sculpts, people in the forums here are not likely to 3D print that item as there is an original DF sculpt (i.e. the real thing) available to satisfy their needs. If there is no available piece to fill their needs, then 3D printing has its place.

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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by oddbender » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:07 pm

kenshidark wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:51 pm
The hardcore fans in the forums will likely only ever be buying the real thing, and people who 3D print are unlikely to invest substantial amounts into DF products - there's just no comparison between the real thing and the quality of a 3D print in my opinion.
I consider myself hardcore, and I have to disagree with that statement. I've literally spent $10,000s on DF, and I also 3D print things all the time. They're not mutually exclusive and can be quite complimentary, if done correctly. However, personally, I don't go for printing things that are DF-lite. I like my DF pre-painted. And for that I'll pay for the quality of the sculpts and no need to paint, just play out of the box. For 3D printing, I go for things DF doesn't offer to supplement and expand my options on the tabletop.

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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by kenshidark » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:51 pm

Unfortunately, there is likely little DF could do about it as I don't believe that they have any registered design protection? There are no unregistered design rights in the USA, but there are in Europe; so it's possible that some legal recourse could be sought there (particularly in the German IP courts - super efficient and not overly costly).

Copyright is typically lost in an industrially applied product (in a number of countries), and copyright in the USA does not extend protection to useful articles (eg, clothing, furniture, machinery, dinnerware or lighting fixtures), but it may extend to any pictorial, graphic or sculptural authorship that is physically or conceptually separable from the utilitarian aspects of the underlying useful article. This is to say the textures and patterns on tiles may be protectable, but in my opinion not likely.

If new sets are wanted to be protected, the best course of action might be to register a design for a "core" item, such as a wall segment and a corner segment, as these will be the most likely items to "inspire" others.

In any case, looking through the forums for the last year has shown that the 3D printed versions of modular terrain is unlikely to impact the sales of DF. The hardcore fans in the forums will likely only ever be buying the real thing, and people who 3D print are unlikely to invest substantial amounts into DF products - there's just no comparison between the real thing and the quality of a 3D print in my opinion.

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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by Harneloot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:05 am

arsthein wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:09 am
I would usually agree on this with Bernyleung but, about the Open Forge sewers... I don't know man, I'm not one for proptly point fingers or accuse of plagiarism but... I'm having a hard time not seeing those that way.

https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/97/ ... atured.JPG

https://assets.pinshape.com/uploads/ima ... -78370.JPG

https://assets.pinshape.com/uploads/ima ... -78386.JPG

https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/43/ ... w_card.JPG

It's not just the architecture and looks of the environment it recreates, as Mr. Bernyleung said that's not property of anyone, but, it's the composition of the gaming terrain set. It could have divided the types of pieces in another way, different details, etc, but it's just almost identical, these and DF are used the same way, on one hand sluiceways and in the other the "freestanding" walls (1 inch and 2 inches), etc.

If you are going to recreate the same environment that another company, you better offer an option different in some way or have better quality. He could have made pieces as 2" wide passages with the sluiceway incorporated... I don't know, there were not lack of options to make things different.

Just my thoughts though.
I agree - this clearly crosses the line into blatant copying of someone else's ingenuity and craftsmanship. There have been a few others like this case too over the years. Oh, and put me down firmly in the camp of no 3d printed DF please.

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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by arsthein » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:08 am

kitenerd wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:19 am
PSOM built on Stephan's geometry and created beautiful sets that complimented what DF offered nicely. I never looked at it and felt "icky" like they were stealing from DF. It always felt more like a beautiful niche homage to a great product.
Neither did I, for starters PSOM made awesome unique environments very different from what DF was making at the time. I don't have any problem with using the same pattern/design of pieces as DF (I find it nice so I can combine if I find something I deem quality worthy).

Well... not that I have any problem with any of these, actually. I agree this is better deal between us customers. Voting with our wallet... when it's not doomed...

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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by kitenerd » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:19 am

PSOM built on Stephan's geometry and created beautiful sets that complimented what DF offered nicely. I never looked at it and felt "icky" like they were stealing from DF. It always felt more like a beautiful niche homage to a great product.

Other products have felt VERY different to me, so i avoid them. No one in this industry has the resources (or the desire most often) to lawyer up and turn this ugly. Mostly it comes down to us as consumers to act according to our conscience.

When you are the best, there will always be imitators, those who want to improve on what you do, and blatant thieves. Unfortunate, but a symptom of being the one everyone is trying to catch up to. Sometimes these aspiring creators bring good ideas to the table that help the whole sector and in the end that is a good thing.
"Miniatures?, sure sign of a petty mind!" - 'The Women' 1939

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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:00 am

Can it be plagiarism if it is a representation the real world ?

Is Airfix plagiarising Revell with their Spitfire MkV?

Whist the above example is very specific and dungeons and sewers are more generic. But if you use the same real life source as inspiration for your models as another manufacturer, then they are going to look very very similar.

The point is maybe the 'second' manufacturer is using the 'first' manufacturers models as its inspiration rather than the Real Life equivalent. That's a point that only the 'second' manufacturer can answer and us as potential buyers make our opinion on.

For us if it is based on Real Life then all bets are off, and as consumers we are getting the best of the deal by having more choices.
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arsthein
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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by arsthein » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:09 am

I would usually agree on this with Bernyleung but, about the Open Forge sewers... I don't know man, I'm not one for proptly point fingers or accuse of plagiarism but... I'm having a hard time not seeing those that way.

https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/97/ ... atured.JPG

https://assets.pinshape.com/uploads/ima ... -78370.JPG

https://assets.pinshape.com/uploads/ima ... -78386.JPG

https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/43/ ... w_card.JPG

It's not just the architecture and looks of the environment it recreates, as Mr. Bernyleung said that's not property of anyone, but, it's the composition of the gaming terrain set. It could have divided the types of pieces in another way, different details, etc, but it's just almost identical, these and DF are used the same way, on one hand sluiceways and in the other the "freestanding" walls (1 inch and 2 inches), etc.

If you are going to recreate the same environment that another company, you better offer an option different in some way or have better quality. He could have made pieces as 2" wide passages with the sluiceway incorporated... I don't know, there were not lack of options to make things different.

Just my thoughts though.

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Re: 3D files of unreleased models?

Post by bernyleung » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:29 am

mazesmonsters wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:11 pm
I mean, I'm personally miffed when I see things like, for example, Dragonlock or Open Forge sewers, so obviously stolen from DF designs. They make their profit off of DF's innovations.
I totally disagree with you here. Nothing is "obviously stolen". Most of these designs are modelled after real world architecture, and that terrain companies have been doing in paper, resin, wood, plastic, and who-knows-what-else materials for decades before Dwarvenite even existed.

I am as big a fan of DF as the next person here, but I do not fool myself to believe that they were the very first to model these designs, because that assertion is blatantly false.

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