hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

ShaynePatrick
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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by ShaynePatrick » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:44 pm

:shock:
Thanks! Sorry to make you relive that, but I love hearing about KS clusterfiascos.
DF really is the gold standard, horror stories also serve to put a delay into perspective, they're sort of normal on KS - and to be honest - DF's delays are not that bad and well communicated.
1.5" model with two dozen parts - I would want to claw my eyes out - and that's without even thinking about painting it.

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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by Forar80 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:25 pm

ShaynePatrick wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:33 pm
Forar80 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:15 pm
And yeah, I've had campaigns take so many years that the value of what I paid shifted pretty substantially by the time it actually delivered (on the 3-5+ year range). That is, indeed, life on a major Kickstarter or two.
3-5 years. W-t-F? I've never (thankfully) had one take that long. That's insane.

Mind sharing what it was?

As far as planning goes, they could lock in a quote a month or two in advance. Currency fluctuations, however, happen all the time, and sometimes are quite drastic (see EUR/USD back in 2012). There is no protection, other than paying as soon as you can.
I don't mind at all.

The first was a clusterf...iasco. Robotech RPG Tactics by Palladium Books (*spits on the ground*). The really, really short version of this is that they funded in early 2013 with a delivery target of late 2013. Early 2014 they admitted it'd have to be done in two waves, with wave 1 in mid 2014, and wave 2 in late 2014. Wave 1 delivered in late 2014, wave 2 was going to happen in 2015... I mean 2016... I mean 2017... I mean oops we've lost the license and it won't be happening, but would you guys like to pay us to ship you some more core boxes and wave 1 expansions that you already have piles of? We backers were lied to for nearly half a decade. They were plenty eager to express how confident and far along they were throughout 2013 while taking in money (the pledge manager didn't launch until the summer, and didn't end until August or September, so clearly manufacturing and delivery weren't going to happen overnight, that was one of the first hints something wasn't quite adding up).

Between my friends and I and a pile of nostalgia, we snagged 8 of the primary tiers to split between us, and a couple hundred dollars in add ons beyond that. One has built a couple dozen models, I have built about a dozen, and sold off most of what I received in order to recoup more than what I spent (not that it makes up for the time, frustration, and shenanigans we put up with), another has his sitting in a closet somewhere, untouched and likely to be thrown out some day. With the game officially dead as of earlier this year, it's not like we're in any rush to build the obnoxiously designed figures (imagine a 1.25" tall unit that takes literally over 2 dozen parts to assemble; it's not a crime against humanity... but it's not far from it either). This is skipping over massive piles of text about things like them promising to ship to backers before retail, but then trying to get some boxes in early to sell at Gencon before backers had theirs, only to be stymied by a longshoreman's strike at the port and then a fire and then customs delays, and how they spent year after year declaring that everything was fine, not to worry, until suddenly everything went sideways with nary an apology worth mentioning.

The other would be Shadows of Brimstone by Flying Frog Productions (no spitting this time). Funded in November 2013, with a delivery date for the core boxes and early offerings of add ons and stretch goal content in late 2014. They blew waaaaay past their original target, and added years worth of expansions, which did become a snag for some people. Long story short, they did deliver the core boxes in late 2014 (though many "ROW/Rest Of the World" backers had a substantially longer wait, especially those in Australia), have been trickling products to retail for years, had a "wave 1.5" option to get some of what was ready, but at a premium (especially for those of us outside of the US), and have been delivering wave 2 for a good year and a half now. It's far from an ideal situation, but contrasted between the two, and a similar amount of backers, funding, and personal/friend group money contributed, I am infinitely happier with the latter. So much so that I backed their follow up Kickstarter in late 2016, which is due to deliver later this year (original target was March of this year, so a roughly half year slide is well within my personal expectations for a project of this scope).

What has been frustrating at times has been dealing with backers who view both equally, despite one flagrantly lying to the backers, providing a fraction of what we're owed (roughly 3/4 by figure count, but only 1/3 by figure type; we got piles and piles of pawns, but only a Queen, and one of the Bishops, as it were), and failing to uphold explicit promises, the latter group still got plenty of crap flung their way every time they updated. Nothing was fast enough, no reasonable business decision was taken at face value, despite the game being great fun, the models being okay (not perfect, but they greatly improved their sculpts after taking feedback on the core boxes) to good (imo). Admittedly updates are infrequent, but at least we weren't transparently lied to.

So, long story short (ye gods did anyone actually read this whole thing?), I still hold up DF as the gold standard for big KS's (in terms of funding raised and complexity of product on offering) year after year. This gives at least some context to one of the worst big campaigns I was a part of, to one that was imperfect but I think acceptably in terms of the raw amount of work they were doing and the resources they had to do it in. These kinds of experiences are why I remain patient and understanding with creators who make good faith efforts, share information, and show due diligence to get ahead of potential problems.

Which, to loop around to the thread and my statements here, includes DF, even while recognizing that the world sometimes throws you a curve anyway. Obviously the DF team can't influence US economic policy, but as backers, we should be prudent enough to recognize things could get messy due to issues beyond their control, and pledge accordingly. I do hope we get record backer counts and funding raised when KS VI ends, but I also will keep the current uncertainty in mind, and as likely as it is for me to go a bit outside my budget, there are better reasons than ever to act at least somewhat responsibly based on our means.

... at least until those encounter tiers start landing and the add ons start flowing and boy will that enthusiasm be hard to contain. (though without a shipping notice for KS V, it's a wee bit easier for now... )
Last edited by Forar80 on Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by ForestZ » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:28 pm

I think Kingdom Death (the first one) took longer that Twisting Catacombs. Fortunately, both were worth the wait. :)

I'm still anxiously awaiting both my DF stuff and my Secret Weapons stuff. So jealous seeing everyone with stuff to play with!

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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by Rabbit Burner » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:49 pm

Concur with marcoreds on this.

George (Pedion) got stiffed in several directions after taking the sensible precaution of financing in Sterling instead of the Euro.

To then get all his KS funds frozen for several months and then when released the exchange rate had gone South. He is still fulfilling though and successfully funded a second KS.

There is always a element of risk in any Kickstarter, you just got to weigh them up and decide is it worth it.

But if you take every risk into account you would not get out of bed! so sometimes you to say 'Sod it! it is a good day to die'.

So we will be backing KSVI :)

But only if we get our Dangly Rope Bridge!
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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by marcoreds » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:25 am

Forar80 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:15 pm
All creators should have contingency plans, and at least be aware of the current state of world/economic affairs, at least in proportion to their expected/final finances.
Sometimes things just happen though.

I was in a KS by a greek guy - Pedion, I think Rabbit also was in that one - that wanted to be safe, since at that time there were talks about “Grexit” (the exit of Greece fron EU, that would have caused surely a devaluation of the greek currency compated to euro and other currencies).

So, he wanted to be prepared.
What currecncy should I rely on?
He opened the KS in British Pounds, to be safe, with funds received in a paypal UK account.

Flashforward a few months... and nobody even thinks anymore of Grexit, instead... Brexit!!!

And, due to an obscure little paragraph in the account contract, the funds were freezed for months, to prevent foreign people with funds in UK to withdraw them, scared by the prospects of Brexit... and he did not have the funds to buy materials for months, and by then pound had gone down significantly...

Sometimes you can try and be as prepared as you want, but life can be so ironic...

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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by Rabbit Burner » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:47 am

Still waiting for our minotaurs - scheduled date was April 2018 - that may have been for 'early' backers.

They have had an issue with one of the molds which is fixed and have now sent to the early backers - the comments show backers have received rewards and are now sending to us commoners - fingers crossed :)
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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by dice4hire » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:16 am

I agree, I did not follow the minotaur one much though I tossed in a buck so not sure how that one went and fulfilled. Th detail was amazing though
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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by LordDust » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:17 am

They make an excellent product and the service I received from them was indeed top notch. I do think though that he needs to put his foot down. The big problem was the ridiculous amount of order customization they allowed. That stuff can be a fulfillment nightmare on a more limited scale! With what they allowed it is honestly a small miracle they didn't take twice as long.

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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by dice4hire » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:48 am

I was glad I was about 2/3 down the stack as it took a long time to get to that 2/3. I would have gone nuts being last.

It was great stuff there, but the campaign was a poster child for overpromising and not restricting what people could buy.

Their last Ks was for minotaurs and looked great. I look forward to their next foray.
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Re: hate to bring up the trade war with china, but...

Post by AnimeSensei » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:27 am

Twisting Catacombs was worth the wait. :)
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