Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by NiandoBG » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:51 pm

dice4hire wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:46 am


Let's try the Reaper model this time out!!!!
If it comes to add-ons I have the feeling that both companies follow the same route: Don't reveal everything to fast and listen to the backers. During a KS campaign we get more and more extras/add-ons from DF and Reaper...
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by nielsene » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:20 am

I think they can still get the best of all approaches.

1) Structure the KS around the encounters
2) Structure the pledge tiers around groups of encounters (probably still having the complexity of the 'Essentials' Style and the 'Complete' style).
3) Build encounters out of more shared 'core' backs with small 'accent' or 'adventure' packs.

The 'core packs' should be identical to the 'Caverns/Dungeon/etc Starter set'

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by dice4hire » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:23 am

How about retail? I wonder how much they loe on castles with all the oddball sets and storage fees. DoD seems to sell out of the encounters from time to time so perhaps the sales are brisk, but i do notice add-ons sell out far faster and more often.

None of us know the numbers, so speculating is hard, but retail is a good part of their business, or at least i hope it is.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by AnimeSensei » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:30 am

The elephant in the room with encounters is they made a lot of money for DF in comparison to KS1 and KS2. It is a business, after all. It's a product that works as intended. A few tweaks here and there can't hurt, but in the end from a sales perspective, I think it makes them more margin than they had in KS1 and KS2. Now, you could argue that KS1 and KS2 were more value than premium products, but I think the encounter system has proven itself to be a winner for DF and I don't expect it to change.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by dice4hire » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:46 am

How to do pledge levels is a bit of a problem., but a simple solution might be on amount pledged, perhaps adjusted to painted or non-painted options.

But I admit that is problematic. Perhaps just do not have "free" stretch goals as they are not free anyway, and just have more funds unlock more options like Reaper does it. I do like that system. But more I hate how DF is doing the "free" stretch goals recently.

Let's try the Reaper model this time out!!!!
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by ejclason » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:57 pm

I'm fairly agnostic when it comes to Encounters. I don't mind them, but also am not wedded to them.

One question I have: If there are not Encounters, how would pledge levels work? I don't think that the KS 1,2,3 system of pledges levels being different multiples of some basic set would work with either KS 5 or 6. There just weren't any sculpts that I wanted large quantities of. Only a small part of my KS 5 pledge was for Vaulted walls, corners, doors, and (dungeon) floors. And I don't want any more of those sculpts.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by dice4hire » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:19 pm

Can I have one of your carrots? I need some vitamins!!!!













Not as much as I need my CD though.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:10 am

kitenerd wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:41 pm
I have said it 1,000 times and i will say it again:

Base sets make the most sense
Encounters generate the most sales

Build the encounters out of base sets plus packs...

Encounter 6 "Dueregar Ambush" is made up of 2 Base Cavern Packs, 1 Cavern Passage Set and 1 Passage Transition Pack

Encounter 7 "Alchemist Laboratory" is made up of 1 Base Cavern Pack and 1 Alchemist Accessories set

People who want to build them one at a time buy 5 packs and people who want the big layout buy 6, getting an extra Base set so they can build both encounters at once. Offer two top tiers one that lets you build each encounter individually and one that lets you build the whole layout.

Obviously every Encounter will not use EVERY piece in a set, but you include a graphic of the "extra leftover parts" - no one ever minded getting MORE than they planned on!


This is SOOO much simpler from a packaging, fulfillment and future inventory management standpoint that i fail to understand why it is not being done... It also enables future KS's that add only a limited number of items to "reissue/resell" previously released stock with different features and bling (like the Pathfinder encounters). They are doing this with Build of the Month and i think it is brilliant (i wonder if it generating significant sales?).

Sometimes what seems obvious is actually a good idea.
Cannot argue against that it seems a good idea - but going to anyway ;)

This is pure speculation:

So thinking why DF do not do this and came up with the following question

What comes first the encounter or the sculpts?

Do DF design let’s say the ice cavern and then break it down into the individual sculpts ?
Rather than say we want a straight ice cavern sculpt, a corner, a floor etc. and see what can be built.

What we believe what happens currently is the encounter comes first and the sculpts are the result, which has impact on the Mold layout and subsequent pack contents.

This we think gives us more unique sculpts such as stairway to violence. If DF were just thinking sculpts then those detail or centre piece sculpts are harder to imagine.

But focussing on sculpts makes creating basic packs and what they can be used to build easier.

For us with less and less storage room and a decent amount of existing dwarvenite, it is the details and centre piece sculpts that are more attractive than the bread and butter pieces.

Looking at Cities and Castles where the focus seems pretty clear on the sculpts to give you the basic building blocks of a city or castle and not so much on building advanced cities and castles (which is why we all want add-ons in KSVII).

In DoD and CD with encounters they seemed more focussed on an entire build (encounter) and that build being non generic, but themed on details or centre pieces while reusing bread and butter pieces.

On the whole we are happy with the encounter system but we are not hardcore dungeon builders and as such do not have, for instance, a swell problem that clearly exists for many.

That’s our two carrots worth ……
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by kodiakbear » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:15 pm

The big thing to remember is that you can build around 75% of your dungeon with just KS1 tiles and use all the specialty peices for where it makes a difference. If a dungeon room is logically going to be a square with a door on only one side why pull out the specialty peices just build it out of the standard 3 peices be they KS1 or KS5 column style. Let the accessories that you put in the room tell the story or what it is or was.

The same goes for caverns, there were enough peices in KS2 to do a good amount of rooms that looked different at (least for me with 10 sets). Now if you were doing a huge room or if you were doing a passage you had to worry about repetitiveness and that is where KS6 comes in. IMO

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Talistran » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:19 pm

Law wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:14 pm
NiandoBG wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:06 pm
Law wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:27 pm

I like the builds you can make, but it's SO much harder. With the basic pieces, I can dig into a bin of just walls and pull out wall. EVen with LED and magnetic walls, it's not too hard to find what I need. But when walls and floors are 1" or 2" or 4" or 6", there aren't enough for a whole bin, so I have to go digging around. With DoD (and to some extent Castles, and even cities if we're talking about sidewalk pieces), I have to find 1x1 or 1x2 or 2x2 or 2x4 or 4x4 . . . it just gets crazy. The little ones get buried in a bin and it takes forever to find what I need. .. .
While I understand your idea, and DF goes in my opinion very much into the direction of bigger pieces again, it’s a matter of storage and organization to find all the small floor tiles. I use three/four different box sizes (xs/s/m/L)which fit to each other e.g. all sidewalks and all sewer floors are in one box (m). All non 2x2 are in one box (s), all 2x2 floors in one box (m) and all 4x4 and bigger in a box (L)
I get that, and for people who have enough of each it makes sense. But for me it barely helps -- having seven boxes, each with six pieces in them, doesn't solve all the problems. I wouldn't want to have to keep track of so many small boxes, when it's easier to retrieve one medium-sized bin. I COULD put smaller boxes in a larger floor bin, which each contain the smaller variants of floors. That would make it easier to retrieve what I need from storage -- it's still one large floor bin -- and it would make it easier to find what I need (in theory - see below). But it would take even longer to break things down, as putting things away means sub-categorizing that many more pieces (instead of tossing everything in "floors").

The larger number of boxes is a problem, too, because it becomes that much harder to find the right box. It was very frustrating, when I was building castles, to try to find the box I wanted, when I'd be digging around. "I just need a small insert corner for this four-inch tower! No, that box is roofs. No, that box is support grids. No, that box is battlements. No, that box is street tiles. GAH!"

Ultimately, more kinds of pieces is more complex, and any solution to one problem is equally likely to invite another. It's all a balance -- ease of use versus flexibility. I liked the balance DF struck in the beginning - no, I couldn't match ANY map that was made, because I was stuck on a 2x2 grid and I couldn't make certain kinds of things ("Doors can't be in corners! Noo!") But the cost of increased flexibility is increased complexity -- storing the pieces, retrieving the pieces, and putting the pieces away, is more difficult now. If it's quicker to find them, it's lower to put them away (because everything needs to go back to its proper place). If it's organized, there's more of it, which can mean you need to organize your organization system ("How should I lay out these boxes to make it easiest for me to find the ones I need in a pinch?")

These problems are easier to deal with if this hobby is super central -- if you can have custom storage compartments made, or it's the only stuff you have to store. But I have Star Wars figures, I have books, I have model railroad stuff -- I can't have a super complex specialized storage system for my DF. So... it gets to be an issue. :/

I've done something like this in the past - I have a box with roof pieces in it, for example, that also has one small box of blue gables and one small box of red gables. I did that mainly to protect the magnets in the gables, which tend to pop out if confronted by a strong magnet, but it also keeps that box organized.
I agree with so much of what you said here.

While I do'nt have CD yet, my DoD has a lot more small floors and things to keep track of than KS1 did. It is more annoying to build with. Also, more fun and I have the ability for some great layouts, but WAY more time consuming.

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