Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

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kitenerd
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by kitenerd » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:45 am

If you have packs with sane compositions, then Encounter XYZ is made of Pack A, B & C and the leftover parts include the Right Swell Wall

The encounter does not need to use EXACTLY every piece in the pack... just show folks what is left over in a separate graphic
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by kodiakbear » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:57 am

Talistran wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:38 am
KS4 didn't "fail" because of the lack of an encounter system. It struggled because the pieces were expensive AND DF failed to product pictures of what you could make with a combination of the packs. Customers (new and old alike) struggled to conceptualize what could be built.

I get what you are saying but personally I could see what I could build just fine and could afford it, I just did not want a castle all that much so I got very little castle stuff. Now the mountain peices were great, I was all in for 3 full sets plus 4 add-ons.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Talistran » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:38 am

dice4hire wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:13 pm
It is am unfortunate side effect of the encounter system.
Right. Currently, the DF crew appears to build an encounter that looks cool and then makes the packs to match their build.

What I want them to do is build packs that are balanced, useful, and cost effective... and then build things out of those packs. Take pictures of all the things you can build with Pack X, Y, and Z. It will give the same effect to new people who need pictures of "encounters" to jump start their imagination, while also providing a better product to everyone.

KS4 didn't "fail" because of the lack of an encounter system. It struggled because the pieces were expensive AND DF failed to product pictures of what you could make with a combination of the packs. Customers (new and old alike) struggled to conceptualize what could be built. So, DF abandoned the pack system and went to the encounters. Which have more problems than they solve IMO. One step forward, two steps back. :)

Ironically, even moving to the encounter system didn't seem to solve many of the "I can't picture" it problems... because DF is behind the 8-ball when they launch a KS. They should have pictures of "here is what you can do" or "here is the encounter" ready to go from day one... then they could focus on things as they pop up, instead of having to take care of basic product marketing DURING the KS.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by dice4hire » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:13 pm

It is am unfortunate side effect of the encounter system.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by AnimeSensei » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:16 pm

Yeah, that's what I mean with "the whole idea." Round it out so pieces mirror each other in both function and composition in encounters as much as possible.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Talistran » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:23 pm

AnimeSensei wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm
nielsene wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:05 pm
I don't feel its an either/or situation though, they just need to be a bit more careful in their piece composition of encounters/add-ons. Things like the two swell walls, should not have been a) in different 'types' (trifecta versus not), or b) in different add-on sets. You almost always want them in pairs.
This annoyed me and now that I have pieces in hand, I wish they would have done the whole idea.
"Done the whole idea?"

I think I'm missing your meaning.



I agree that it is super annoying. I don't remember the exact composition of my pledge, but I do remember I was going to end up with like twice as many left swells as right swells (or vice versa). Which is stupid. I LOVE the idea of swells, but why so lopsided and why are some trifecta and the other not? I can't understand it. This is one of the problems with the encounter system and should be such an easy catch... yet, it made it not only to the KS but to production. :(

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by AnimeSensei » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

nielsene wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:05 pm
I don't feel its an either/or situation though, they just need to be a bit more careful in their piece composition of encounters/add-ons. Things like the two swell walls, should not have been a) in different 'types' (trifecta versus not), or b) in different add-on sets. You almost always want them in pairs.
This annoyed me and now that I have pieces in hand, I wish they would have done the whole idea.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by nielsene » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:05 pm

I don't feel its an either/or situation though, they just need to be a bit more careful in their piece composition of encounters/add-ons. Things like the two swell walls, should not have been a) in different 'types' (trifecta versus not), or b) in different add-on sets. You almost always want them in pairs.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by zenako » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:59 am

My brother-in-law is a TIM. But back to the topic, screws, yah, I try to stop by the smallish local Ace hardware that still stocks loose screw drawers as well as most common hardware whenever I can, located near the center of town. They are closer to my house (but not by much) than the large Lowes near the highway. The challenge for them is they do have to limit what they stock to more common items.

However, back to the topic of encounters vs piles of sandbox tools. For me since most of my constructs are trying to mirror older game scenario maps that likely predate DF even existing, being good with just winging it with a pile of parts is crucial. I have never run any of the stock encounter builds from DF for my games. I did grab the All-In for Dungeons of Doom (since I had almost no dungeon tiles) and that was a cost-effective way to get a large pile of stuff to build with. I had been getting Cities and Castles stuff for a while to support outdoor settings and there I was just grabbing various groups of stuff from the DF Shop. When it came to caverns deep, I was more selective and while I did grab a few encounters, mostly those that could be both underground or outdoors, the bulk of my buy was forest. In my games, there is often a strong bias to encounters in the open. Only in a couple of recent cases have my players had to run thru a "dungeon", even thou it was a dwarven fortification near the top of a mountain range. Many reasons for that playstyle, but that is another topic.

As to the LEGO argument, it is clear that DF needs to keep adding new customers, and many new customers need to see exactly what you can build with a certain pile of parts. It is also a lot easier to market preset settings. For a recent example, the Pathfinder sets, all designed to work with a specific encounter module. Challenge for DF will be shipping turnaround when tied to other product launches that do not have the same production/shipping issues. Hopefully, it works out well for DF and they can continue that kind of partnership which certainly brought new eyeballs and wallets tot he product line.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by dice4hire » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:47 am

There are tims and then there are TIMS
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