Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

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arsthein
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Re: THIS is how KS should be constructed! NOT Built Around Enconters...

Post by arsthein » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:00 am

GODofwar wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:35 am ...But the encounter system is the cart pulling the horse.
I think you nailed the metaphore. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Greetings,

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Law » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:18 am

I don’t entirely agree. I think the encounter system is mostly economically driven, creating bundles that encourage a ratio of bread-and-butter to bling that supports the production of the bling. It’s also a fair system, in that you’ll actually NEED all those basic walls and floors to build a reasonable space around your fancy bling.

To the extent that people don’t want to follow the encounter system, there’s absolutely no need to. The starter sets make a basic room. Buy multiples of those to create multiple rooms or larger rooms. And add-ons make it possible to include the bling WITHOUT getting all the extra fluff.

I honestly don’t see the issue. If you just want basic rooms that include all you need, you can get them. If you just want bling without over-committing to basic pieces, you can do that. Encounters are great for people who don’t want to figure out what they need to buy, and how many, to get something cool. And a shortcut for fans who want them. But they don’t change the way you have to buy.

Now, this KS did include these fussy options of swells and trifectas, and the starter is designed so that a complete cavern involves one swell and some small pieces to go back on the grid. Buy a trifecta and you can get back on grid with slightly fewer pieces - but there’s no option to get a full room with NONE of those. But that’s not the encounter model imo, that’s just DF pushing swells and trifectas.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by realarete » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:57 am

I think DF loves their encounters. They like having a story behind them, they like presenting an option of an encounter built by 3-6 packs. They like showing how (pushing...?) to implement the newer styles and pieces they are adding like Terrain trays, swells, and the best pieces of the set Trifecta ;) Encounters are certainly the easiest way to present those things in a favorable light.

That said its easy to stay away from them also. I didn't buy a single encounter except the Doom Woods. I did buy 20 ish assorted packs however which will let me build some really cool stuff ... once it arrives :o :shock: :?

As Law said, you can go either way here, or even avoid caves and just get Woodlands as some have done. The VAST number of pack options will let anyone tailor the caves to their needs, but ofc buying sets funnels your needs towards DF build doctrine ... that is use the CD to build multiple tiers of elevation of organic caves with negative space. Banks greatly help this, and trifecta pieces are a "natural" transition between a bank and a 2x2 wall/floor/or corner. Thats how CD is set up.

There was too much excitement building these encounters for them to worry about ratios of Right Swells vs Left Swells .... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by GODofwar » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:19 am

arsthein wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:58 am
GODofwar wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:05 pm Hi, Arsthein, long time no chat. Are you goint to the Essen show?
Quite a long ways from your location I know....

You hit on a problem I am having. I need to order more stuff and I want to balance swell walls, particularly since I'm ordering KS6 solely to enable my fairly large sets of KS2 to show a lot of variation (KS2 was one of the best bargains in the KS series, but it does not feature a huge variation in caverns you can make, as we all know).

So did you come up with any ideas besides buying more Trifecta? I need 110 walls, and I doubt I'm going to buy enough Trifecta to balance that number of starters!

Your Thoughts sought.[/b][/color]

The Chief Least Weasel of Valoria (Pretendant)
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, except KS7, which I won't buy....
Hi there Weasel Chief! not going to Essen, it's not quite near and I already had my fill of travels this year (€€€!)
Money, money, money. Never enough!

I'm not disappointed at all with the variety that CD provide to the existing basic pieces. New floors, new corners and new walls (if you count freestanding and swells). Although I'm not sure if I would think the same if I had more than 2 sets of KS2 and needed an equivalent amount of CD pieces to spice things up. I still use resin first too, so I'm well served by KS6, although I admit I would be better yet served with a more sensible distribution of the basic pieces in sets (being the starter, which I feel should be the remedy for all of this, the worst mistep, IMHO, I insist).

Starter needed a better balance, I agree - some left swells for example! I use my resin a lot too, and the passages in KS6 will be nice with resin cavern passages.

Which I'm more eager to check is the paint scheme, so far I'm liking what I'm hearing. If it is better than KS2 (which it seems to be the case) but not exactly like resin, it could be a nice middle ground spot to combine the 3 if you put some effort into it. Still, I plan to give it a shot to a light drybrush on the KS2 stuff on the long run (and may be CD to match it), to see if I can get them near stilll to resin. I don't need an exact match though.

I got caverns unpainted, so I'll have a paint party when my KS6 arrives and match that. Frankly, black cavern walls aren't that bad - I just tell players its too dark to see much on cavern walls even with their measly torches!

I plan on balancing the right swells with the corner filler to kind-of-align with standard walls. I hope the 1x1 walls and floors have some role to play in it too. But the "coup de grace" I'm hoping I can deliver to the matter are the freestanding walls. I expect that, being freestanding, I'll be able to make swells with them over regular floors. We'll see if that combination comes up looking good enough, and if the height-irregular nature of the floors allows for that. Finally, you can allways hide "not-so-well-looking" combinations with stalagmites.
Wow! Hadn't thought of any of this. Thank you.

In your case my good Weasel (my god you went overboard with KS2!) I don't know if you can pull this off with the need for so many walls without ending with a setup too cramped with this kind of messy attempts at balancing the right swells.

Greetings!

And greetings to you and your family. Espero que todos celebran feliz navidad!

The Chief Least Weasel of Valoria (Pretendant)
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, except KS7, which I won't buy....
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Re: THIS is how KS should be constructed! NOT Built Around Enconters...

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:33 am

arsthein wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:00 am
GODofwar wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:35 am ...But the encounter system is the cart pulling the horse.
I think you nailed the metaphore. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Greetings,
We totally disagree :D we think the Horse is definitely pulling the cart, because encounters are the key to RPGs. Do you want an adventure in a cavern or in a Summoning Chamber?

We believe the creation process starts with an environment, say caverns, and then moves onto what encounter could you have in said environment, then what sculpts would you need, create mockups, decide what can be reused from other mocked up encounters, sculpt, test, sculpt some more paint sell.

Of course other factors apply, such as make it modular, Make it big enough for LEds ate. Also Encounters may revolve around such things as items missing from the previous KS (Dungeon ruins!)

This we think is the best way to come up with new diverse sculpts, rather than let the sculpts drive the encounter, that we think would lead to more, we need a wall, a floor, a corner, a corner with a pool, a floor with a pool etc. That is not very imaginative and we think the sculptors are more engaged when they see the bigger picture.

Sculpt a cavern wall that we can use in cavern encounters
Or
We need a cavern wall of a Summoning Chamber sculpted

The second is how we believe DF operate and to us that is how it should be. DF should be sculpting encounters not pieces.
So we prefer DF to sculpt encounters not pieces

We see plenty of dungeon and cavern wall Kickstarters, but they tend not to be that imaginative, but are clearly what they are meant to be and very modular.

The thing to remember is that us DooFers are hardened DF builders and are used to building off-piste so to speak, so want maximum diversity and compatibility, we subscribe to that, and its frustrating when you can’t quite find the pieces you need. DF do a decent job allowing you to get smaller sets, but their economics means they cannot offer piece by piece like Lego can.

We believe the encounter system is more conducive to more imaginative sculpts.

Of course this is purely conjecture and wild speculation :)
We reserve the right to be wrong
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by William » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:43 am

and we reserve the right to agree that it's pure wildly speculative conjecture. ;)
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by William » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:46 am

Did that sound like D4H? I was shoot'n for it.
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Re: THIS is how KS should be constructed! NOT Built Around Enconters...

Post by arsthein » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:31 pm

Rabbit Burner wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:33 am
arsthein wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:00 am
GODofwar wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:35 am ...But the encounter system is the cart pulling the horse.
I think you nailed the metaphore. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Greetings,
We totally disagree :D we think the Horse is definitely pulling the cart, because encounters are the key to RPGs. Do you want an adventure in a cavern or in a Summoning Chamber?
... (edited by arsthein to reduce quote)
Hi buddies!

Hey just a friendly reminder, disagreements apart, that nobody (I don't think) is saying "encounters are wrong, get rid of them". Just the role they play in the final product.

By all means, be imaginative, be creative, create the KS with the encounters FIRST in your mind if you have to, think of the hag's den, the prison passages, the smuggler's cove, etc, if that's what makes the creators think of new ideas and awesome pieces...

...and then plan the packages being modular and balanced FIRST.

And lastly detail the encounters with the packages you've created.

Keep in mind that all I'm considering for this argument is things like the rightswellgate, if more things are taken into consideration, the reasoning could suffer changes.

That, of course, is, on my part "sit-back-comfy-in-my-chair" corporative management.. 8-) but of course it is, but hey, is all I've got my friend, as a DF user, can't have more than that: my hopes, my experience with the product, which gives form to my subjective opinion. Just pouring it in the sea of the Doofers opinions.

I really think it's doable though! And I think we're heading that way (that is, the DF crew).

Greetings!

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by John D » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:50 pm

Rabbit Burner wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:33 am
The thing to remember is that us DooFers are hardened DF builders and are used to building off-piste so to speak, so want maximum diversity and compatibility, we subscribe to that, and its frustrating when you can’t quite find the pieces you need. DF do a decent job allowing you to get smaller sets, but their economics means they cannot offer piece by piece like Lego can.
Doo doot doot do do Doooooooo. Tuna!

I've been pondering this from different angles, and I have many thoughts about it - 'conclusions'...not so much.

I agree with the Cart pulling the KS metaphor - I think the encounter/environments are being presented backwards. I would imagine the thinking is "let's simplify (focus) the environment we're offering so that it fits into a series of one-off adventures, highlights a few sculpts, and is quickly palatable to fresh (backers) eyes". I get all that - and in some respects, it's a pretty solid idea. Seems almost a reaction to the confusion created by the Castles KS.

BUTT. Do you guys remember during KS 66.666 when the alternate build pictures showed up (late in the game), and had a few backers asking how to pledge for the builds in the new pictures? They didn't seem to realize that all these builds were possible with the corresponding Encounter pledge. At the time, I thought "wow, the modularity/flexibility aspect of DF's environments has really taken a back seat to the encounters - that's unfortunate". I think it was all cleared up by the end of the day, but the thought haunted me.

Personally speaking, it's the Complexity, variety, and possibilities of DFs environments that really get me enthusiastic about the new pieces. The encounters are ...too simple, too narrowly focused for me to get excited about - or conversely too large and expensive for me to consider. Lava Bridge, for example, has tons of building materials to play with, but if you don't care for Terrain trays (or some other smaller aspect of the set), you'll be better off buying the Add-on packs to get what you want. Which DF offers. Hurray!

BUTT 2. I skipped the DoD KS, and have been picking it up thru retail. I got a few encounter sets (Zaltar, Eldritch, Gorgon) with the plan of supplementing them with several necessary add-on packs. Unfortunately, Vaulted Wall packs, Vaulted Diagonal Packs, Vaulted Corners have Never been available in the DF Store (this is Unpainted, and yes there are tags for them but they've always been greyed out, never 'in stock'), and Floor packs and Curved Walls have only appeared briefly. It's been over a year since DoD hit the store, and I've been forced to doubled up on Starters, Zaltars, and Eldritch encounters just to get the walls I've needed since the beginning, but I just don't need the rest of those encounters. It's frustrating (and expensive).

I'm starting to wander.. so to sum up: If DF wants to pursue the Encounters as their 'go to' package, that's fine. I think they should make a greater effort to present the Possibilities inherent in the encounters, and make sure that the Bread & Butter add-on route is just as viable - and then actually available.

Oh, I quoted the bunnies because I agree with that bit whole heartedly, and I try to keep it in mind.

well, the coffee's cold now....Happy Building.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by CaptCook » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:22 pm

Totally agree with a lot said above. There's a balance to strike between bread and butter pieces and the full encounters. I think another thing that adds complexity is the desire to offer a 'tiered' entry point. The desire to have cheaper sets, that still include some flashier pieces and aren't just a rectangular room.

As someone who came in with KS6 being my entry point into what's become a rather expensive hobby (no regrets!), I admit it was the encounters that first drew me in. It's a great entry point, and I agree with the bunnies that "Summoning Chamber" is something you can look at a photo of, and as a DM, come up with all sorts of cool ideas around to use it basically as is.

That said, my summoning chamber turned into encounters 1-6, dreadhollow and a bunch more besides. I wonder if part of this is a function of the KS vs the store? If, for instance, you bought encounters 1 through 6 separately in the store, between them all, you'd get a TON of bread and butter pieces to go with the flashy ones. In a way its due to the "build them all, but not all at once", aspect of the KS that lowers the number of basic bits you get. That'd be super expensive though.

I don't know. On the whole, I'm pretty happy with how the whole thing was organized and the variety I got. But it definitely takes some work to sort through it all and figure out what you're actually getting and if it's what you need. I also certainly made some mistakes which I'll have to correct in the store. I agree with you John, one thing that would be very helpful is better idea of the variety of possibilities and a maybe comprehensive list (more than the spreadsheet) of what's in a pledge without having to compare hundreds of photos. No idea how I'd go about doing that though.

Now I've also just added a bunch more words with no conclusions! Ha.

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