Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Oldent » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:46 pm

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by William » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:03 pm

On second thought, forget Lassie.
Glad my name's not Tim. ;)
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by AnimeSensei » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:44 pm

William wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:15 am
Anyhoo, I'm still stuck in a well. ;)
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by kodiakbear » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:42 pm

William wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:15 am
I remember (not all that long ago) when I could go to the hardware store and if I only needed 5 screws I would walk out the door with 5 screws in my pocket. You were not forced to buy (2) 4 packs with too much packaging
My town hardware store is likely going to move away from selling individual screws. People keep throwing screws back in the wrong bins and the clean up time is becoming just to great. This is why we can't have nice things.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by William » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:15 am

I just hope we don't collapse into a prepackaged world. I remember (not all that long ago) when I could go to the hardware store and if I only needed 5 screws I would walk out the door with 5 screws in my pocket. You were not forced to buy (2) 4 packs with too much packaging and two foot long receipt from a store 7 miles farther than the old place was. Here in the US, the loss of smaller businesses restricts choices for the consumer, we are getting to a point where you are forced to go to a big box store or do it on-line. Also, I'm sure delivering every single item we want to our door is soooo ecological. :roll: The little ma and pa stores are going away, they can't compete. It's hard for small places to compete with the larger company's that lobby for the rules and regulations that raise compliance costs too much for the little guys and our officials pass it on through without a thought. It's been a mess for many decades.
Sorry about going all off topic, but I'm not for prepackaged encounters... ;) :lol:

Anyhoo, I'm still stuck in a well. ;)
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:45 am

Castles was easier than Dungeons for us because we knew what castle we wanted to build but not what dungeon.

So encounters for DoD helped us get some dungeon. Without encounters we would have probably just got some stairs bridges and ledges and of course Golems :) So having got encounters we put together Lava Bridge and Gorgon Tiers and ran the kids through a couple of adventures, the same with the Jade Temple.

The Lego territory does seem a natural progression if you are going to create new sculpts. One consistent theme in this forum is that DooFers ask for variation sculpts to help them create more organic builds. And when DF revisit a theme it is from the bottom up so that it can be a standalone theme no KS2 required for KS6.
Not convinced that we have failed the current generation wrt to working things out for yourself, it is just manufacturers having worked out they can shift more product if they make it easier. This (in theory) gives you more time to work out more interesting stuff – like how to fix Global Warming, get a Rabbit on Mars and DMing a TPK.

If you are interested you will spend time working stuff out. In Castles we were so deep whereas many DooFers were more ‘meh’
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by William » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:47 pm

It's really not a problem and DF was just trying to do what the rest of the world (lego, food,...) has been moving to. The Encounter evolution kind-of reminds me of our general society today, processed food, prepackaged items, do this and don't worry...we have you covered. I see it in every aspect of our lives since 2001. Here consumer, buy THIS, because you were not taught to noodle things out, just what to buy and think.
So sorry kiddos, me thinks we failed you. :(
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by GardenDM » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:22 am

@Rabbits - I think that's a fair summary of how things unfolded. I think there's a reasonable counter-argument that some sort of pre-built set was vital for castles due to the sheer complexity, but not necessary for dungeons, caverns, woodlands, etc., since these pieces are much more versatile and most of us intuitively "get" how to use them.

I'm personally not a fan of Encounters and may never actually build one despite having cobbled together the pieces together to do so via various add-ons, etc. (plus the few that I bought whole in to get specific pieces or for the overall value prop - i.e. Gorgon Tiers, Burrows, Ice Caverns, Crystal Caverns).

With all of the above said, I think it's totally reasonable for DF to continue to offer encounters for all future releases.

Without knowing the behind the scenes details, my guess is that DF has moved into Lego territory in terms of customer base and complexity of offerings. Many of us just wants heaps and heaps of raw parts to build with. BUUUUT, I suspect there's a large and growing audience DF is appealing to that wants the beautiful custom set (Encounter for DF, Model or Set for Lego) shown on the box with full instructions on how to use every piece (adventure & build photos provided by DF, assembly instructions by Lego). Assuming the "set" customers group is growing faster than the "bricks" customers, DF would be making a mistake to ignore the former by abandoning the Encounters model.

Jumping back to my personal feelings, as long as DF continues to offer access to the core pieces via add-ons (or similar) as they did in KS6 and KS6.66 (heck, even the pre-order), I say rock on with the Encounters. Bring in the fresh blood to keep the company healthy and the hobby growing!

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:24 am

Nothing wrong with discussing all things DF and beyond on these message boards that is why we like it here :) also its warm in the winter.

The issue is we just do not know what DF knows so we are generally groping in the dark. But Talistran is right even with only half the story more eyes can give some insight, that those closer to the dwarvenite face, may fail to see.

What we will say (again?) is that these much maligned encounters came out of the Castles KS where the bread and butter pieces were offered in effectively Add-on packs with a few basic setups Citadel, Watchtower etc.

But so many DooFers said they did not know how to use them or what they could build, we found that surprising given that there are clearly many clever DooFers. Sometimes though you want to see something cool you can build, not just walls and towers, then buy it in 'one click' – this is really good for new customers and those that do not want to think too hard or trawl through the excellent spreadsheets.

So DF listened and created the Counts Castle and Royal Stronghold etc and then used the similar encounter system in subsequent Kickstarters.

So you cannot have it both ways and satisfy everyone. Ultimately DF provides a one shot solution for the ‘one clickers’ and then almost everything else in add-ons up to the imposed limit of SKUs.

We feel we all actually get the best of both worlds within the limitations of the Real World.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Talistran » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:24 pm

Rhizom wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:21 pm
Ok, I get the point with the SKUs. They could save some with encounters just made of basic packs plus adventure packs. Granted.

But still, who are we to decide what is best for DF’s business? We are only those few hardcore-fans here in the forum. DF is in contact also with beginners, people who just want a single room exactly as they see it, and which ever other customer groups we do not even imagine. I mean, even I like to have one or the other encounter between my build your own, just because it is pretty and has a somewhat reasonable piece count.

Who are we to tell them, what is the best way to sell their pieces and make customers happy? They are experts in that matter and I fully trust them that they aim for the best compromise for all customer groups. With all the add-on sets, they are pretty close to fulfilling our needs as well as the ones from “beginners”.

The only thing you do not get when you do build your own is the discount from the higher pledges. So maybe it is that what you are worried about? That you don’t save those few bucks?
A) No one is telling DF what to do. We have thoughts. We have ideas. We make suggestions. They are welcome to take or leave them.

B) Who are we? We are dedicated fans. We are knowledge subject experts who (between all of us) use these pieces far more and in far different ways than DF does. WE know the product better than DF does. Nobody is treating DF like they are idiots, they are excellent artists and wonderful people... BUT they aren't perfect AND they have a VERY small company who, while brilliant, can use the extra set of 100 eyes the forum provides.

C) "Those few bucks" are not a few bucks. We're literally talking about 10-15% off of the Encounter prices. The add-on prices are even more expensive generally than the Encounter prices. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to save a few dollars and NOTHING wrong with requesting different ways of putting together sales packages (encounters). DF doesn't have to listen, but why are you trying to make people feel bad for asking?

D) Speaking of those 100 eyes the forum provides (I'm using a small number, the forum is bigger than 100 regular users)... that is not a small number. I'm a numbers guy, statistician. We predict the election of the United States (pretty dang accurately) on 900-1000 people out of 300 MILLION. If you imagine that DF has 10,000 customers, a sample of 100 actually provides them with a margin of error of 10%. Meaning that if they see that 70% of the 100 want something, they would see somewhere between 60 and 80% of the 10,000 would answer that same way! Increase that sample to 385/10,000 and you are at 5% margin of error. That is pretty damn powerful. Disclaimer: Yes, I know it is not a random assignment. However, there is nothing intrinsically different about the way that a DF forum user and the general DF customer use the product. Research has shown that a passionate fan base is far more likely to represent the general customer base than not.

Anyways, some food for thought.

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