Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Oldent » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:55 am

Rhizom wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:13 am

Nonetheless I agree that it would be easier for beginners and more comfortable for people that are not so much interested in the thrill of the KS experience but much more in the pieces they will get. I totally get the point and see that I am kind of a minority, I guess.
No, it has not been established that you are in the minority. There are only a few people that frequently post. Some are more vocal.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by GardenDM » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:50 am

+1 to Talistran's proposal (and kudos to all other members who have said similar over the years).

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:22 am

Rhizom wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:13 am
I heard all that before, but I think, what @Talistran wrote is the best comprehensive summary of the position, Talistran and many others have. Thank you for this, @Talistran. It is very clear and DF could take this directly as a blueprint and realize it.

That said, I still do not feel perfectly comfortable with that suggestion. I kind of like all this fiddling around with piece counts and comparing different ways of putting together my pledge. Calculating what I get from encounter sets versus what I get from add-ons or any combination of core sets, essentials or basic sets. I love the thrill of waiting and hoping, if DF will listen and give us some some other combinations of pieces in sets they introduce during the last days of the KS. I know how strange that sounds: I basically say that I want it more complex and confusing. And yes, I really do! This is the reason why I spend one month of the year with nothing but thinking about my pledge. And waiting restlessly for the next daily update. This is the best month of the year for me. If things were easier, I would just check in once in the beginning and once shortly before the end of the KS, adjust the number of sets once and be done. That would be only half the fun.

Nonetheless I agree that it would be easier for beginners and more comfortable for people that are not so much interested in the thrill of the KS experience but much more in the pieces they will get. I totally get the point and see that I am kind of a minority, I guess.
We are in this boat too - it’s the experience of a DF KS that makes it stand out as much as the product, other KS's we often wait till we get the reminder and then decide to back or work our pledge out - more fire and forget.

But wrt Talistrans post and the idea of selling encounters with balanced add-on sets (so you get the four corners etc.) would mean the encounter is more expensive and alternative builds would still be potentially limited.

These are not great detractions from some good ideas and we would not be sad to see DF move toward this :)

We think DF are all about the coolest encounter to bring in new customers and still give existing ones that wow moment, they also want to bring the cost down (don't we all) so we would not be surprised if they continue with this in KSVII and not provide extra sculpts to even out the packs within an encounter.

Do you make it more expensive for more flexibility?

How flexible do you want it?
many will not know until they start building

We pledge for maximum flexibility but apart from Castles we generally don't know what we are going to build when pledging in a KS, we tend to decide on something achievable - like a 4 foot lava flow or 4x3 forest.

In retail we think having even/balanced packs of single sculpts can be really useful. In cities we quickly discovered we did not have enough doors and more posts would be useful - a week later we have those without paying for extra walls or floors etc. that might have come with an encounter based pack.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Rhizom » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:13 am

I heard all that before, but I think, what @Talistran wrote is the best comprehensive summary of the position, Talistran and many others have. Thank you for this, @Talistran. It is very clear and DF could take this directly as a blueprint and realize it.

That said, I still do not feel perfectly comfortable with that suggestion. I kind of like all this fiddling around with piece counts and comparing different ways of putting together my pledge. Calculating what I get from encounter sets versus what I get from add-ons or any combination of core sets, essentials or basic sets. I love the thrill of waiting and hoping, if DF will listen and give us some some other combinations of pieces in sets they introduce during the last days of the KS. I know how strange that sounds: I basically say that I want it more complex and confusing. And yes, I really do! This is the reason why I spend one month of the year with nothing but thinking about my pledge. And waiting restlessly for the next daily update. This is the best month of the year for me. If things were easier, I would just check in once in the beginning and once shortly before the end of the KS, adjust the number of sets once and be done. That would be only half the fun.

Nonetheless I agree that it would be easier for beginners and more comfortable for people that are not so much interested in the thrill of the KS experience but much more in the pieces they will get. I totally get the point and see that I am kind of a minority, I guess.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by pacarat » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:59 am

This.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Talistran » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:46 pm

nielsene wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:13 pm
AnimeSensei wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:10 pm
To be honest, I think the whole "use a basic pack in each encounter and have bling packs added to make an encounter" is what they did in Caverns Deep. It's why we had the Universal and Core packs.
The difference is that under one scheme there's only 1-2 'Core' Packs. Not 1 core pack per encounter as CD did. And the core pack is designed to be a coherent set of pieces, not just a collection of parts (like the Universals ended up being).
Right.

One of the major problems for "Encounters" as currently created and designed is that the parts make little sense EXCEPT in that specific configuration for that build. It is like they build something they like (and the encounter they build IS cool), but they only include the pieces in that encounter necessary for that specific build. Thus, we end up with 3 corners in an encounter or a left swell wall and no right swell wall.

But, if instead, they made core packs (wall pack #1 includes 8 walls and 4 corners of style A, wall pack #2 includes 8 walls and 4 corners of style B, floor pack #1 includes 4 floors of 3 different styles) and some "adventure packs" that go with each theme of the encounters they want to build... they could build encounter #1 with one wall pack #1, one wall pack #2, speciality walls #1 (swell in and out, an arch door, a torch wall, whatever), floor pack #1, adventure pack #1, and dungeon dressing pack #1.

So, then they take those packs and build "the official encounter #1" out of those packs. They use most, but don't have to use all of them (so they can use just 3 corners if they want, or use just a left swell but not use the right). A bonus is that Toby builds four alternative builds out of those same packs that come with encounter #1, taking pictures, so that people can see FIVE different and varied builds that could be built out of Encounter #1. In each of the builds, all of the pieces are never used at one time, but most of the time there are only half a dozen pieces sitting on the sidelines (or whatever).

Then Toby (or whoever) can use Encounters 1-3 and build alternate builds. Etc.

For those who want the whole enchillada, no problem. They buy Wildlands Wild Card which includes $38,000 worth of the 29 encounters... for some reason they want all 400 walls, 200 corners, and 370 floors.

For those who want just the new stuff... they buy a pack or two of each of the new walls, floors, etc... and then buy all the speciality and adventure packs. They can easily look at the encounters and see that Encounter #5 uses the most wall packs #1 so they buy three so that they can build Encounter #5 with it. But Encounter #9 uses four wall packs #2, so they buy four of them. Now, they can build all the encounters, one at a time by buying some walls and floors and all the adventure packs.

And for those who can only afford $100 or $200, they just pick and choose add-ons or wall packs or floors or whatever they want.

Now some of you are saying to yourself that this only works with things like Dungeons and Caverns that have "commonly used" pieces. And I'd agree that it is partially true. However, in Wildlands, we WILL have common terrain. For instance, different encounters will probably include common pieces like trees, bushes, pathways, RIVERS--PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOME BEAUTIFUL SCULPTED--3D RIVERS, roads, mountains, etc.

So, changing to something like this is a Win Win. It is easier for new customers (they see several options of what they can build with each Encounter or sets of Encounters), it is easier for existing customers, and it is WAY easier for fulfillment and warehouse.

Now, how to handle stretch goals? Make a pack of cool things that aren't necessary, but are cool. Make several of them exclusive to the stretch goal pack. As total dollars raise, add more items to the pack. Then, give one pack to anyone spending $300, two packs to anyone spending $800, three packs to anyone spending $1400, etc. DF can figure out their own profit margins vs the CTP of the stretch goal packs. Put the pack $$ cutoff points just above the average levels of various types of customers to increase their spending. For instance, lots of people say they have a budget of $100-200. So, put the first cut-off at $250 or $300 to make them stretch. If they really can't, they can still buy the stretch goal pack for $50 if it really has stuff they want in it. And future customers who missed the KS can buy them for $70. Heck, make three different stretch goal packs if you want... just make them all purchasable separately and now it isn't just the whales who can get the "higher" pledge stretch goal packs.

And finally, stop alienating your existing customer base who buys mostly via add-on. Instead of just giving significant discounts to people who buy the whole enchilada, give discounts based off of money spent. Give 3% off if you spend $500. $5% if you spend $1000+. 7% for $2000+. blah blah. All the way up to whale territory where if you spend $7,000+ you get 15% off. Or whatever. And if you really want to incentivize people buying The Whole Package, then make the cost of that like 6% off of the individual price AND lower the "money spent discount" so that someone who buys the whole package gets 6% off because they bought the whole package AND 9% off because they bought more than $7,000.

Win, WIN, WIIIIINNNN! DF makes more, customers are happier AND more informed, and customers get a better value regardless of whether they are new or old (i.e. want just the new stuff or lots of everything).

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by nielsene » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:13 pm

AnimeSensei wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:10 pm
To be honest, I think the whole "use a basic pack in each encounter and have bling packs added to make an encounter" is what they did in Caverns Deep. It's why we had the Universal and Core packs.
The difference is that under one scheme there's only 1-2 'Core' Packs. Not 1 core pack per encounter as CD did. And the core pack is designed to be a coherent set of pieces, not just a collection of parts (like the Universals ended up being).

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by MrMorden » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:23 pm

Even now I find it confusing how the encounter, adventure essentials, core, and adventure packs relate to each other. It's just hard to know how best to allocate resources (e.g. MONEY).

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by AnimeSensei » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:10 pm

To be honest, I think the whole "use a basic pack in each encounter and have bling packs added to make an encounter" is what they did in Caverns Deep. It's why we had the Universal and Core packs.

I like the idea of having stretch goals tied to a dollar amount. Each stretch goals "set" is available based on the amount you pledge. But don't do it like the KS3 grab bags where the more you spent, you got exclusive minis.

I wish all stretch goals were just extra walls, floors, corners, etc. I don't want bling for my stretch goals. I want bling in add-on packs. People need a place to play first, then they need things to put in that space. Someone just starting out will likely care more about maybe being able to build an extra room through stretch goals than having a flag, manacles, or corner fill piece. Just my $0.02.
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by kitenerd » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:20 pm

Again - SG's can be easily handled by building a "Wicked Additions" pack - useful accessories for all - secret door, corner door, set of stairs, dais... (perhaps new sculpts or even just a collection of sculpts appearing elsewhere in the KS - like the troves from DoD) the higher the total goes the more coolness gets added in

One free for $x, 2 for $2x, 3 for $3x - at the end you put a price on the set and let folks buy it as well (and that package goes straight to retail - just like KS 2)

We feel like we are getting something free (baked into overall KS costs) and years from now people can still get all that goodness for a price
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