Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by Rabbit Burner » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:01 am

kitenerd wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:50 pm
Rabbit Burner wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:43 am

...
Let me get this straight...

You are glad that DH was a part of the CD KS? Why not part of CBS? And for that matter why CBS when there was already MBS in the same scale as DoE?

I don't even know what i am talking about, but i have a strange craving for alphabet soup...
Stick to the soup :)

And send us some while your at it please ?

We did not know of MBS before the CBS KS - our first exposure to the elixir of Dwarvenite. But from what we have seen of MBS, for our use CBS is more usable.
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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by kitenerd » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:50 pm

Rabbit Burner wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:43 am
Speculation is rife :)

We, for our point of view, are glad DH was in CD, gave us something to sink our teeth into.

Having said that if DH was not in CD but in its own KS (like Hellscape) then we would have pledged for the same amount of DH but would have probably spent more on an actual cavern in CD. We do some narrative RPG playing with the kids and caverns provide that, very much like out DoD purchases, though they are secondary to our Wargamming needs.

With storage becoming an issue we prefer Kickstarters to meet our wargamming needs first and we can drop our secondary RPG requirements.

DF Kickstarters since we have followed them, KS3 onwards, have always had a sub theme, we speculate that as these are not directly related to the main theme, DF put them in to either strengthen the main theme that might not sell as well in isolation, CBS (sewers) and Castles (mountains), or as a niche environment they want to add but DF feel would not sell well in isolation, DoD (burrows) and CD (Dreadhollow). Regardless of reasoning by adding them in they help mitigate risk of backers not finding anything they want in the KS.

We like that DF do this as it removes elements of risk and provides us backers with more diverse environments. It should help DF avoid a failed KS or worse a ruining 'not successful enough' KS.
Let me get this straight...

You are glad that DH was a part of the CD KS? Why not part of CBS? And for that matter why CBS when there was already MBS in the same scale as DoE?

I don't even know what i am talking about, but i have a strange craving for alphabet soup...
"Miniatures?, sure sign of a petty mind!" - 'The Women' 1939

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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by NiandoBG » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:59 pm

I don’t know what you are talking about.
CD and DH are two separate KS!

At least if I measure it based on the delivery :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry for the joke...

But if you look at it from the business perspective the statement could become true as well.
Many of us did not spend as much as they would like. They concentrated on either CD or DH.
If and that might be the difficult part of my hypothesis the stock in February/March is big enough a lot of backers will fill there missing holes and will spend with a retail mark-up what they otherwise would had spend in two different KS.

So KS 6 was one big KS with two sub KS :!:
more than 2,800 self painted dwarvenite pieces :)

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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by zenako » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:48 pm

Well, they made a couple of good decisions. They went with a large base size, which makes it significantly easier to build a larger outdoor setting. Just four 6x6 tiles to cover a square foot, while it would take 36 standard 2x2 tiles to cover the same area. That is a lot quicker. Most outdoor setups will be larger than most folks make their dungeons or caverns (most folks) so you need to be able to build them without as much hassle. There is a reason I have a number of the Long Walls for Castles, quicker to build a good size fortification. As a portion of a larger KS, they could just focus on one type of setup or encounter and not worry about creating a whole range of tiles for many of the situations we have now been asking for. That let them limit the number of large molds they needed to have made in that KS, and thus the financial risk.

Another thing that was not intended, but I suspect has worked in their favor is the extended drawn out shipping where basically DH was the last encounter to really ship and folks are able to focus on it at this point since most of the cavern goodies are now "old news". This lets the good stuff and hype focus on DH and not get spread over all the settings at once.

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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by Vegomatic » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:17 pm

I think the scatter terrain, while it may have been a toe, is completely different from tiles. I believe the bigger risk was in the terrain tiles. Everyone wants trees that they can scatter on a mat and then just throw in a bin at the end of the day... so there was much less risk there. I think most people would have been happy to just use the trees on a terrain mat. They had to *sell* the terrain tiles. Convince us that they are a good idea and can make better scenarios than a mat with top notch scatter terrain. To my knowledge outdoor terrain tiles have not really been done before and so there was a good chance they would not do well.

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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by Talistran » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:16 pm

Law wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:42 am
Lots of good points here. I can see how splitting the KS could have hurt it. But if course any KS runs the risk that it won’t succeed because some people wanted X instead of Y. I guess the question is “Is this setting so niche it can’t stand on its own!”


I mean, caverns has long been a mainstay. It was one of the first resin lines AND one of the first Dwarvenite ones. It makes sense to think that a caverns-only campaign would have been fine. BUT on the other hand, for that same reason people may not feel the need for more caverns. And maybe there was concern that DH (it will ALWAYS BE “DH”) needed a boost to get started. Hmm.
I think burrows is a good example of a DF line that might have got screwed by being part of something bigger. MANY people commented they wanted to order a bunch, but couldn't because of the scope of the KS overall. Would it have done better as a Mini KS? I think almost certainly.

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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by William » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:34 pm

Dreadhollow was more than a "toe" to me. The scatter trees is a toe and that is how much I dipped in. The DH floor tiles and escarpments are (after seeing them) wonderful, but they could have tested the market with just the trees only and then introduce the whole "encounter" (ground tiles, TT's and escarpments) in a future KS. Sometimes that toe-test could be a KS like Hellscape, on it's own. 2-pence. ;)
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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by Gargs454 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:04 pm

Law wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:45 pm
Makes sense. Even if they lost some Caverns Deep sales (to people, like me, who’d have gotten more If it hadn’t been competing with DH), they got to mitigate the risks of Dwarvenite forests and still hit the setting hard, so they only really cut into some sales. My initial assumption was naive to the extent that I believe I’d have gotten more DH if it had been its own campaign - because ofc if it had been its own campaign it would have also been a lot bigger, so I’d never have been getting 6 or 7 heavy forest tiles etc. I’d have always been forced to limit quantities of the same pack - either to make room for Caverns Deep or to make room for other add-ons in a full-scale DH campaign.
I wouldn't call it naive. I wouldn't even necessarily call it incorrect as the timing between KS'ers would almost certainly have made a big difference as well. (Just as an example, CD came at a time when I had just moved and had a lot of moving expenses as a result, meaning I didn't have excess cash lying around for a KS, so I skipped it). By the time Hellscape rolled around though I had available funds again and so was able to invest.

Ultimately I suspect that your conclusion that each of DH and CD could have generated more sales if they had been separate isn't wrong. The decision to combine them though was quite possibly a risk mitigation decision though. Lower the ceiling to raise the floor.

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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by Law » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:45 pm

Makes sense. Even if they lost some Caverns Deep sales (to people, like me, who’d have gotten more If it hadn’t been competing with DH), they got to mitigate the risks of Dwarvenite forests and still hit the setting hard, so they only really cut into some sales. My initial assumption was naive to the extent that I believe I’d have gotten more DH if it had been its own campaign - because ofc if it had been its own campaign it would have also been a lot bigger, so I’d never have been getting 6 or 7 heavy forest tiles etc. I’d have always been forced to limit quantities of the same pack - either to make room for Caverns Deep or to make room for other add-ons in a full-scale DH campaign.

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Re: Caverns Deep and Darkhollow should have been two campaigns

Post by scott102303 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Rabbit Burner wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:21 pm
What we remember was that before CD and DH we as a forum were not that keen on dwarvenite trees as there were plenty of existing tree options.

So it is not surprising that DF would have thought a standalone DH KS might run the risk of 'not succeeding enough'.
Right - hindsight is 20/20. DF dipped its toes in trees/forest with one encounter in CD. When it found the water was warm and cozy, they jumped in with both feet into KS7. It was a smart business approach and I think we ourselves will buy far more from KS7 now that we've had DH in our hands prior to the KS. Win all around.

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