Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

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Morgrim66
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by Morgrim66 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:15 pm

Quick answer to the original question. Nope, it's just you.

In answer to the "completionist" issue and there not being a "one pledge to rule them all" option, I felt a bit confused and disappointed at first before I read much and understood how the packs were being broken down and separated out. I made the 1-11 Adventure packs pledge, as 1800-1900 is about the most I can commit. The truth is I could drop another couple of grand on the credit card but why succumb to the impulse? As long as the company continues to do well (as it appears it will from the pledges) you should be able to buy any additional pieces late next summer, that you did not choose to pick up in your pledge.

I agree with another poster who said its just good business from DF's perspective. KS's are marketing the update and drumming up interest. But they would be silly to give us a somewhat introductory rate on the entire product line. That would reduce sales over time.

Personally I could only afford encounters 1-12 of KS5 at the time it came out, but I do intend to buy encounters 13 and 14 eventually and I imagine I will do the same with at least some parts of encounters 12-15 of KS6.

I am not disappointed at all, as a matter of fact I am thrilled and awed by the continued increase in the quality and detail of the sculpts. Both KS5 and KS6 have stepped up the overall realism and ingenuity of the product. I am anything but disappointed.
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by GODofwar » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:31 pm

GardenDM wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:27 am
GODofwar wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:57 pm
AnimeSensei wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:35 pm
Honestly, what I feel would be good would be to have a cap on price.

It would be great if DF said "the max pledge for everything will be $3,600." (using the DoD as an example) Then DF sculpts and plans to fit as much as they can within that max budget. That way we know in advance what the max pledge will be; we can plan for that, and then they can design the best possible environment within budget. I really think it could work. If they decide to raise the budget, we know in advance and can plan. You'd have more people be able to save up their money if they knew what they needed to have on hand prior to the KS launch.
Zach, how would this help anyone? It seems to me this allows more people to "feel" completionist, but the actual effect is just to reduce the choices available.

What's wrong with having a lot of buyers not able to buy everything? What other store in the world would you expect to enter and be able to buy everything you like? This makes no sense to me.

Basically, my reaction is many Trogs don't want to have to feel (accurately) that they can't be a complete buyer, so they want the rest of us to get less options.

Furthermore, I think 'completionism' with this KS makes no sense per se. Its quite clear that DwF wants us to 'completionist' and buy the whole 9 yards, but its also clear they listened and made it so completely modular each of us can fashion our own buying strategy, with almost no limits.

I have many boxes of resin caverns, and 10 basic sets of KS2+30 add-ons. That makes me a minor whale, is all, but its a lotta Dwarvenite. I do not NEED to buy a whole KS6. What I do need is the ability to break up the too-regular Caverns my players are now used to.

I alway set goals and strategies for a KS. My goal here is to be able to use all my caverns and not have even one passage or cavern look remotely like any other - even the small ones. Now I need to calculate how much of each type of KS6 cavern piece that would take, and break out what small boxes (or maybe encounters) to buy. That's the strategy.

Last, I ahve to allow for the Forest. I have Ice Caverns, and I prefer the translucent anyway. One thing I decided a long time ago was NOT to consider any of the special sets (ice caverns, Chamber of Sorrows, and, for that matter, all of KS5) as a 'complete dungeon' but only as part of a larger dungeon, or at most, a small one-off dungeon.

This has reduced my costs and made my buying strategy coherent across all KS so far.

Consider that, Zach. It has worked for me.

The Chief Least Weasel of Valoria (Pretendant)
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, yeah, that means you to KS6
Very, very close to my feelings both in KS5 DoD and here. Sure, there's a bit of "I want it all" emotion that I feel when first processing these massive KSs, but at the end I boil it down to "what's the most awesome mix I can get to augment the great stuff I already have". It saves so much potential grief.

Plus, I always come back to the fact that time is fleeting and things only last for a season. I'm greedy and want the DF crew to make as much variety now so that I at least have a shot at owning it someday, even if it's 20 years from now on the secondary market. If they constrain themselves and go at half-speed (or less to hear some people on the forums talk...), it's a given that they won't make as many new sculpts over any time period (5 years, 10 years, etc.). Let's strike while the forge is hot!
Hi, GardenDM. Anxiously awaiting our packages, which are projected to arrive tomorrow.

Yess, get more of our Precioussss...more variety, more options, now married to more buying flexibility. GardenDM, you are on target, at least my target. I just hope buying flexibility doesn't reduce the total buys. Pledges have remained very static last day.

Without disclosing anything, GardenDM is another of our generous Trogs. He put together a joint order of FOg Monsters, and mine is now en route, after rather complicated problems from the company, which Garden handled without complaint.

I really have enjoyed all my in-person contacts with Trogs. Thanks, Garden.


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Totus KS Delenda Sunt, yeah, that means you to KS6
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by GODofwar » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:20 pm

Dear Trogs, DwF is not only a small business (have had two) but a small NICHE business.

Truth is it only exists b/c of the iNet. DwF pulled out of stores b/c the margins were too thin (I'm guessing here, but its an informed guess). iNet allows DwF to deal directly with us, the Trogs, and make more profit margin.

The KS' have allowed Stefan to expand a great deal. But he also now has a more rigorous business requirement. A number of staff have to be paid, and I'm sure Stefan feels an obligation to them beyond simply some more expendable business assets.

This is not only a small niche business, it is a business run by, and for, fanatics. Fanatics are notably diva-ish, and somewhat demanding.

I would like to suggest that the KS startup problems are predictable. Because no plan survives first contact with the enemy...and it was not a hobbyist who said that, but a war-hardened general.

There are at least three large-scale combat operations with my miserable staff fingerprints on them. I can assure you this stuff does not happen just with DwF. It happens with the best military in the world - ours.

Funny alternate history features Belisarius as the protagonist. In the first book a young lieutenant runs up to Belisarious to frantically report, "Sir, the enemy is not acting as we thought they would!"

To which Belisarious replies dryly, "That's we we call them 'the enemy' ".

Events out of DwF control are 'the enemy' here. If the worst thing that happens in this KS is two days of blurred photos, I'll live with it. Yes, newcomers will be put off by it.

And the reason for this lengthy digression is to provide all us Trogs the ammunition to comfort their little souls....AND DRAG THEM INTO WALLET DAMNATION ALONG WITH US!

Carry on.


The Chief Least Weasel of Valori (still Pretendant)
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, yes, KS6, this means you.
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by Grumm the Sureblade » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:23 pm

Safe flight, Stefan. Good luck at GENCON!

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by AnimeSensei » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:17 pm

One thing I didn't realize until the livestream was not getting quotes from the factory until a week or two before the KS launch. Nate said essentially that his heart dropped and then he had to "cut the arms and legs off of his children (aka the encounters)" to decrease the cost per encounter. So maybe the budget idea wouldn't work.

My concern is and has always been committing to such a large scale and then having a potential dud for a kickstarter. It happens at some point. Let's say your breakeven is $2 million but funding only hits $1.7 million. I don't want DF to go out of business trying to fulfill when mold costs are such an upfront cost, and I don't want DF to have to tell everyone mid-campaign or post-campaign that they're going to have to remove X number of pieces from the kickstarter because funding wasn't sufficient. That's my issue. I would -love- to be able to buy everything, but I know I always can't. My bigger concern is the scope for longevity of the company should a bad year arrive. I know it's not my company to manage, and you all have a handle on things, but it's something I love and want to continue and that's why I have a personal opinion on it.
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by Spiropolous the Minotaur » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:50 am

What you say makes a lot of sense Garden DM...If we had done that the last 3 years, we would have only released 1/4 of the things we have. Also, doing 2 kickstarters would actually RAISE OUR COSTS rather than doing lots of stuff in 1...so prices for stuff would either increase or....we would be out of business...we work ALL year long to do the kickstarter. Doing two a year would be a logistical nightmare and would overlap each other. Gosh. The factory just couldn't handle two simultaneous million dollar KS'ers I am guessing...we can do maybe a teeny tiny one. We actually have two tiny KSers planned but they are separate from terrain so there is no confusion and they will be VERY simple: miniatures (maybe 40 pieces) and Mythras Sourcebooks (no miniatures)

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by GardenDM » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:27 am

GODofwar wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:57 pm
AnimeSensei wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:35 pm
Honestly, what I feel would be good would be to have a cap on price.

It would be great if DF said "the max pledge for everything will be $3,600." (using the DoD as an example) Then DF sculpts and plans to fit as much as they can within that max budget. That way we know in advance what the max pledge will be; we can plan for that, and then they can design the best possible environment within budget. I really think it could work. If they decide to raise the budget, we know in advance and can plan. You'd have more people be able to save up their money if they knew what they needed to have on hand prior to the KS launch.
Zach, how would this help anyone? It seems to me this allows more people to "feel" completionist, but the actual effect is just to reduce the choices available.

What's wrong with having a lot of buyers not able to buy everything? What other store in the world would you expect to enter and be able to buy everything you like? This makes no sense to me.

Basically, my reaction is many Trogs don't want to have to feel (accurately) that they can't be a complete buyer, so they want the rest of us to get less options.

Furthermore, I think 'completionism' with this KS makes no sense per se. Its quite clear that DwF wants us to 'completionist' and buy the whole 9 yards, but its also clear they listened and made it so completely modular each of us can fashion our own buying strategy, with almost no limits.

I have many boxes of resin caverns, and 10 basic sets of KS2+30 add-ons. That makes me a minor whale, is all, but its a lotta Dwarvenite. I do not NEED to buy a whole KS6. What I do need is the ability to break up the too-regular Caverns my players are now used to.

I alway set goals and strategies for a KS. My goal here is to be able to use all my caverns and not have even one passage or cavern look remotely like any other - even the small ones. Now I need to calculate how much of each type of KS6 cavern piece that would take, and break out what small boxes (or maybe encounters) to buy. That's the strategy.

Last, I ahve to allow for the Forest. I have Ice Caverns, and I prefer the translucent anyway. One thing I decided a long time ago was NOT to consider any of the special sets (ice caverns, Chamber of Sorrows, and, for that matter, all of KS5) as a 'complete dungeon' but only as part of a larger dungeon, or at most, a small one-off dungeon.

This has reduced my costs and made my buying strategy coherent across all KS so far.

Consider that, Zach. It has worked for me.

The Chief Least Weasel of Valoria (Pretendant)
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, yeah, that means you to KS6
Very, very close to my feelings both in KS5 DoD and here. Sure, there's a bit of "I want it all" emotion that I feel when first processing these massive KSs, but at the end I boil it down to "what's the most awesome mix I can get to augment the great stuff I already have". It saves so much potential grief.

Plus, I always come back to the fact that time is fleeting and things only last for a season. I'm greedy and want the DF crew to make as much variety now so that I at least have a shot at owning it someday, even if it's 20 years from now on the secondary market. If they constrain themselves and go at half-speed (or less to hear some people on the forums talk...), it's a given that they won't make as many new sculpts over any time period (5 years, 10 years, etc.). Let's strike while the forge is hot!

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by zenako » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:15 am

Mold erosion over time happens. What matters most is the degree or erosion important to the part. Loosing a few tenths or even a thousandth of an inch on a Dwarvenite Piece will not matter. In the industry I work in, it likely would affect fit and function. We have to hold tolerances to a few thousandths of an inch. For example, we have a constant challenge with getting "right sized" gaskets that precisely seal certain gaps, and invariably it was from mold erosion over time that resulted in oversize parts. (Many gasket material contain fillers that abrade the surface during injection.) I have no doubt that what Stephan said is true, that for DF, their molds have effectively unlimited life and part of that is because the product is essentially art and can easily withstand minuscule changes that cannot be seen with the naked eye.

I have this type of discussion with folks all the time about materials and parts. Everytime you rub a surface, you actually remove material (perhaps only a few atoms worth) but you do remove something. You can also deposit other materials on the surface just by touching. Many old specifications used to use descriptions like no observable wear or damage - without conditions like (under a 20X scope). Then when someone examined the part under an SEM and saw a chip on an edge and declared the part damaged, we were stuck. Yes, a 3 micron chip can be seen in the SEM, but it in fact has absolutely no impact on the parts performance. An entire exercise in updating old drawings and standards has to be undertaken to reflect modern capabilities for inspection and assessment. Working on 50 year old legacy systems can be such fun....

Now it is interesting to hear that they have made Millions of castings of some of those parts. There is a lot of dwarvenite in the world it looks like, and that is a good thing for all gamers.

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by pacarat » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:56 am

"One Million...."

Image

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by William » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:45 am

Safe flight and have a BLAST !!!
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