Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

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Spiropolous the Minotaur
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by Spiropolous the Minotaur » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:33 am

About to leave for the airport, but I'll answer a few questions here...STEEL MOULDS: No, they WILL NOT WEAR OUT! Proof: We Literally have already cast some Pieces: like from KS1 OVER A MILLION TIMES:) Yes, the basic wall piece for instance, has been cast over a Million times....it hasn't worn out. That's why they make a steel mould. Rubber Moulds wear out, but Dwarvenite is cast in STEEL. There is NO flexibility. The Dwarvenite is the thing that must flex. That is why there can be no undercuts normally. But these pieces are so complex, they require multiple sliding moulds in most cases, and lots of gluing together of parts that just have to be cast separate and glued on later. I'll ask Jay to post pictures of the Moulds, they are Amazing! You need a small crane to move them around the factory!
Why were graphics not completely prepared at launch? I see this question many times! The reason is that the graphics people are always waiting on the photography to be completed. The photography cannot be taken until we get the hundreds of prototypes sent to us from the factory. You see, we sculpt and cast the original sculpture in the office, then we send the rubber mould to China, they make their own masters (eventually in metal) but first they do us a favor and send us hundreds of prototypes in Resin that we paint up in the office so that Nate can make his beautiful videos...so until we get these from the factory, and until we know the pricing so we can compose the size and make up of each Set, we cannot even start on the graphics...We sculpted hundreds of pieces over the course of the year, and even if the graphics people start earlier on without the photos (which they do) the final layouts and colors and text cannot be done until we know the sizes, colors, shapes of the photographs(and pricing)...does that explain it? They have no choice but to make a mad dash to get it done in the final few weeks. This year, in particular the factory (I hate to throw them under the bus) had several delays, which caused us to lose about a month! We would have delayed another week but could not because GEN CON is coming right up. And so, we just had to dig in, man up, (lady up) and just work 18 hour days right up till launch date. They are still working non stop to improve everything every day:) Please have patience, and you will see that we will catch up in the next few days. we have already improved a lot. I just want to make clear that the perception that somehow we have been lazy, or dragging our feet, or unprepared is just not the case. We have never been so prepared for a kickstarter. We have never had so much staff on hand working so long hours. Please give us a few more days to catch up...all will be better:) And there are some REALLY AWESOME things to be revealed by Gen Con!

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William
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by William » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:57 am

Love the Border Crossing Idea... glad I don't need to role-play that one. ;)
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by Law » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:30 am

GODofwar wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:12 pm

My Minotaur Lord Law, OMG, you aren't using parts bins ALREADY? YOu have GOT to have more DwF than I do!
I need a better system, that's becoming clear.

I started (post-resin) with 1 small bin for KS1 bling (doors, stairs, secret door, treasure) and one large bin of KS1 tiles. Ditto for KS2 - large for bread and butter pieces, small for stalagmites and mushrooms. Then I had a small bin for water tiles and a small bin for lava and lava River.

Cities got complicated, but they're so unique it didn't prompt a shift in my dungeon storage. I have art trays for accessories (chimneys, townsfolk, food, market stands, signs) and separate small bins for everything else roughly categorized by type: streets and alleys (large bin); stone and wood floors (large bin); stone walls; Tudor walls; doors; roofs; balconies; crenellations; sewer sluices and floors; sewer walls. Then some larger bins with some items in original DF boxes to keep things straight: bridge of valor, gables, Tudor ruins and fires.

Frankly, it's a headache. When it's been awhile, I can forget even which boxes I need to build a town. "OMG, I forgot to take out the balconies!"

Castles - nightmare time. ;) I have large bins for 6" tower walls, 4" tower walls, long walls, regular walls, corners, risers and stairs, straight battlements, large round battlements, roofs. Then I have small bins for small round battlements, small round crenellations, large round crenellations, support grid platforms, necromancer bling, runic bling, another bin just for the drawbridge and gate, and so on. Honestly, again, I lose track - I'm having trouble remembering all the categories even now. If I tried to retrieve my castles for storage and build something at this moment, I'd almost certainly forget to look for a key box.

DoD, so far I'm working with a fraction of what I will end up with. So for now I have one small bin for passage pieces and elevation (Acid Bath), one large bin for core build pieces (debating where to draw the line - curved walls? Outer curved floor for those walls? which floor sizes are basic and which count as specialized?) and one small bin for bling (magnetic walls, LED walls, accessories like the throne and table and mini dungeon). And I've got all my LED plug-ins, from cities and castles and DoD, stored in an art tray now to keep the prongs from getting squashed by Dwarvenite.

As my DoD collection grows, I'll have to fix how I'm doing it. And at some point, I at least need a manifest of Cities and Castles storage so I don't lose track. Some pieces are tricky bc they fit several categories. Those little curved outer floors are necessary for some battlement walls if you do small towers, so keep them with battlements, right? Except you may also want them for the ground level, so keep them with streets or floors or whatever you're placing along the outside of your castle. And are risers more like floors or more like stairs or more like walls?

Oy.

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by Talistran » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:50 am

GODofwar wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:48 pm
Talistran wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:08 pm
GODofwar wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:00 pm


Just a note- Zenako is right that molds may wear out, but my friend who is a plastic extrusion guy indicates that the steel molds last a LONG time when injection molding any plastic.


The Chief Least Weasel of Valoria (Pretendant)
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I owned and operated a molding and fabrication company for over a decade. I've said it before and I'll say it again, steel molds (when made properly) will never wear out from being poured with plastic/pvc/rubber, etc in the amounts that DF is pouring. They can get damaged, lost, misplaced, stolen, etc. But the minor wear that occurs are to replaceable parts that are routinely replaced.
Intersstikng. My buddy does hi-pressure injection plastic, some at pretty high temps. He says there is some erosion. I don't know how hot/hard Dwarvenite is injected. Make a difference, maybe?

The Chief Least Weasel of Valoria (Pretendant)
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, yeah, this means you KS6
Yep, there is erosion. What your buddy and I are saying can both be true.

There is erosion says your buddy. And I am saying that with the quantity of pours that DF is doing of each mold, the molds should not be wearing out ever. Could they wear out? yes. But DF isn't pouring 20,000 stairways to violence.

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by Kryzsko » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:19 am

After listening to Nate I am no longer disappointed. For me there was some sticker shock and I didn’t realize how huge some of the pieces were. I was never going all in on this anyway. I am still not a fan of the way stretch goals are being handled but everything else is fine by me.

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by GODofwar » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:48 pm

Talistran wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:08 pm
GODofwar wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:00 pm
zenako wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:58 pm
I personally feel they have tried to cram too much into a single KS. That while they will get support for a lot of the designs, it will not be a deep and cost effective as it would be if there were fewer options. So right now, folks with a budget of $3000 for example, not a trivial sum, will still have to be selective about what they get and support. So instead of getting 2000 copies from each mold and amortizing the mold costs over those 2000, they might now only have orders to support 700 copies from that mold and have a lot higher sunken cost to eat.

We have heard that each mold costs on the order of $10K to make and from what I know in similar industries that sounds in the right ballpark. If the raw material costs 25 cents, and the molding process itself costs (labor etc) costs another 50 cents, here would be some simple math and the cost to make the parts.

For 2000 parts = 10K fixed x (2000 x(.75)) will equal $11,150 in costs or $5.75 a part.
For 700 parts = 10K fixed x (700 x (.75) will equal $10,525 in costs or $15 a part.

If they sell 3000 = that is $4.08 a part
If the sell 10,000 = that is $1.75 a part

The nominal KS price for parts in this KS, based on the pricing in the spreadsheet is ~$4.40 (if you were to purchase all 11 of the complete encounters).

Amortizing those fixed mold costs over a large production run is a huge deal for turning a profit.

Now molds don't last forever and will need to be remade once used long enough, so the mold cost can recur in the future.

Where I was going is that by having so many different molds and models in the mix, they run the risk of not selling enough copies of those designs to make it affordable.

It does look like they have some of the alternate landscapes mainly consist of alternate paint schemes, so those will not require new molds, just different paint instructions. (Looking at Icy stuff, and Underdoom so far.)

Just a note- Zenako is right that molds may wear out, but my friend who is a plastic extrusion guy indicates that the steel molds last a LONG time when injection molding any plastic.


The Chief Least Weasel of Valoria (Pretendant)
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, yeah, that means you to KS6
I owned and operated a molding and fabrication company for over a decade. I've said it before and I'll say it again, steel molds (when made properly) will never wear out from being poured with plastic/pvc/rubber, etc in the amounts that DF is pouring. They can get damaged, lost, misplaced, stolen, etc. But the minor wear that occurs are to replaceable parts that are routinely replaced.
Intersstikng. My buddy does hi-pressure injection plastic, some at pretty high temps. He says there is some erosion. I don't know how hot/hard Dwarvenite is injected. Make a difference, maybe?

The Chief Least Weasel of Valoria (Pretendant)
Totus KS Delenda Sunt, yeah, this means you KS6
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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by GODofwar » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:45 pm

NinjaMeesta wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:21 pm
Magniopi wrote: Having just looked at the shipping chart, I now feel the need to apologize to people outside the US.
Shipping for that Smuggler's Cove I keep looking at is an additional $9 in the US, but is an additional $65 to Canada and $130 more to the Eu/UK. OUCH.
Oy vey, I didn't look closely at that on the spreadsheet! :shock:
I guess I'm sticking with my cross border forwarder.
They've raised their flat rate on packages, so the savings were minimal.
Not so much now, after seeing the new shipping costs. :cry:

Yoiks!
Mees
Scan up and see my post on crossing the border...BTW, I live close to the border...Canadian that is. RElatively close.

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by GODofwar » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:41 pm

dice4hire wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:40 am
Next stop is KSVII, duh!!!!!
<smacking forehead> Of course. How obvious. I'm thinking like I lived in a warren...


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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by GODofwar » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:39 pm

Per Nate’s “Why are there so many pack’s” YouTube video each encounter will be broken down into small add-on packs. So you will be able to get each of those big specialty pieces.

I think I am going to be able to get everything I want the way I want it. Right now it is just confusing because so much is unrevealed.
---> THis is the power of KS6. You can buy almost exactly what you want.

For me it is just hard to pledge right now beyond my $10 because I have no clue what these packs are going to include or how much they are going to cost.
---> I never pledge beyond $10 until last day or so. Too much unknown. All people do is fiddle with the pledges. I make my goals/strategy, spreadsheet it, then buy at the end..

I am just glad I bought a bunch of KS2. I am sorry but that set is awesome. It is not perfect but it is pretty great (I have used it a bunch). The nice thing is there is so much in KS6 to inhance KS2 it is crazy. My cavern is going to be amazing.
---> KS 2 is awesome. I got 10 basics and a bunch of add-ons. Now that pays off BIG TIME.
I am just accessorizing with KS6. And you can too.


I don’t think I will be able to fit in the Forest set and that bums me out but what can you do. If I get the forest I would have to skip 90% of the caverns. Oh well we’ll see.
---> I think if we stick to accessorizing our KS2 religiously we can BOTH get the Forest....

Must be hard for backers with no KS2 stuff. It seems expensive to get good table coverage. I know they are saying most people would only build 1-3 encounters at a time but that is not how I do it. I pre-build a whole dungeon or cave. It is hard to know how quickly your players are going to go through an area and you don’t want to stop to build each new section, and more and more maps are open world with multiple pathways so you can’t even be sure which way your players are going to go.

---> I find that I can, if I want, tear down as players go and build just what they can see ahead. Takes VERY little time, and actually does two good things: 1-FOrces them to make and RELY on their own maps (that's may be an Old School reference, and you may be too young...) ..and.. 2-Makes it impossible for them to guess whats ahead under the cardboard/ply plates/whatever. .
[/quote]

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Re: Is it Just me, or is Anyone Else a Bit Disappointed?

Post by GODofwar » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:33 pm

period3 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:53 pm
I don't have any KS2. I hope they have some analogous basic packs in this KS that aren't too crazy expensive.
Nope. Best bet: FInd and buy KS2 packs, then supplement with KS6. See my other recent posts (ie today) on this thread for my ideas, which may not work for you. KS2 is the bones, this is padding.

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