What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by Law » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:37 am

That sounds awesome, kodiakbear!

I admit, my approach came more from necessity than aesthetic preference. When I started collecting DF, I had very few pieces and very little space to work with. So I noticed that three or four complete rooms linked by passages meant I'd need a lot of table space plus I'd also need 12-16 corner pieces, 12 wall pieces, and so on. But if I built rooms abutting one another, I only needed 6 walls for two rooms instead of eight. And I only needed 8 walls for three rooms instead of 12. And so on.

So with one Room and Passage set (8 corners, 7 walls), I could build three distinct rooms my way, but only two rooms if I did them "complete." It just made more sense to me to build three. Felt like a more satisfying environment. And as I added pieces, it still made more sense to make 7-9 rooms instead of only 3 or 4. And the habit stuck.

The lack of negative space wasn't so much a dislike of the space, or even concern about how much game table I had - it was fallout from the maximally efficient use of my limited pieces.

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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:02 am

We get you can build a big cavern, but our experience of DnD is that you seem to spend more time in narrow passage ways and small caves, but we are talking about a few decades ago ;)

We were just highlighting how our disinterest in actual caverns as a 3D gaming environment finally had some concrete reasoning behind it. We think what DF offered in CD is gorgeous and some fabulous sculpts but none of the encounters grabbed us by the ears and demanded we buy it

We just don't see caverns as the big wide open spaces to play war or skirmish games on. Of course you can do it, but we had a better connection to Dungeons for skirmish play (the Lava Bridge encounter was one we saw immediately as having great skirmish potential) and feel that caverns for our gameplay are too similar.

Caverns would lend themselves beautifully to the Betrayal at Calth board game, which takes place in the vast cave and underground systems on a Planet whose surface has become totally irradiated by a insidious attack on the sun.

This has much appeal apart from the fact that we can create similar environments with dungeons (the Calth stories talk about developed and undeveloped cave systems).

So for us the caverns are an easy cut given that Dreadhollow was released. Having said that with the young'uns starting to play some DnD we might try to stretch to one ;)

We do like the idea of some skirmish along twisting turning cavern passages, we shall have to see what occurs in the PM. We do like the Ice cavern could be utilised with our Winter board, just need some ice mountains to go with it.
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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by AnimeSensei » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:49 am

I would love to go to a con and play in each of our different worlds and DM styles. So much creativity here.
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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by kodiakbear » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:33 pm

I come at dungeons very differently than Law.

Many of my dungeons are underground caverns that were dug out and converted into dungeons so often the over all shape will be similar to a cavern that has been squared off (or other shape).

In some of my dungeons a vein of harder rock causes the builders to have to build around or over it causing strange shaped rooms, passages or stairs up to small rooms and back down to other rooms.

While I do some times do the dungeon that fills every inch of a table or graph paper, my dugeons are often effected by the location and history of the area and do often have parts that are not from the origianl dungeon as it was build but have added rooms and features as the owners changed. I also do abandon dungeons that are over run with monsters using them as caves, since building dungeon out away from civilization is a risky buisness.

Any way you build them dungeons and caverns are fun.

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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by AnimeSensei » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:45 pm

I pledged for a Deluxe Caverns Deep, but I am thinking of selling off the Crystal Caverns and Underdoom as I don't really want 3 different paint schemes. Standard and ice are enough for me.

That being said, I will probably try to add:

•2x Ice Floor Packs
•1x Driftstone Pack (either unpainted or painted in standard cavern paint if they offer it)
•Natural Bridge Pack
•Ice Passage Pack
•Ice Stalagmite Pack

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the DCD pledge gets stuff like the large ice floor, ice passages, or ice stalagmites? So I need to supplement.
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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by period3 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:19 pm

Rabbit Burner wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:00 pm
Interesting .....

this thinking has made me realise why we don't want or need a cavern, we just have no a desire to have a cavern. Because we want total table coverage for a war game or skirmish game.

Caverns should have lots of claustrophobic tunnels and as Law just pointed out that leaves wide open dead space. For some reason we just had not made that connection.

We did get a fair amount of dungeon, without wanting a dungeon but felt it can be used for skirmish games and reading this got us to realise why we thought they could be used - because you don't have dead space walls are double sided.

As Mr Spock would say 'fascinating'

As an aside have managed to get the young bunnies to play some very simple DnD and its proven to be successful, so come the PM we might see if we can stretch to a starter cavern at least :)
That depends how you build your cavern. It can go either way. There are a lot of passage pieces, floors, etc. that aren't very helpful for skirmishes, but take a look at the ice catacombs or underdoom and you can see the beginnings of a nice skirmish setup in my opinion. Even the savage gorge or smuggler cove seems like it could be rejiggered to make something much more open.

Forget the walls. But it's the same with dungeons, if you look at the more arena type setups posted in the KS, they didn't use that many walls. (e.g. Image)

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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by period3 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:10 pm

Law wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:16 pm
I will add that I'm more comfortable with a smaller cavern, comprised mostly of just one room, than I would be with a dungeon that had that design.
I have the opposite view on this. A cave is winding and deep, with many passages and wide open caverns.

Dungeons are man made and usually pretty small. One or two rooms will do, something like the DoD prison encounter and maybe the dais of the dead or lever room. But caverns? Lots of environments: pirate cove, underwater caverns, limestone caverns, mines, burrows (arguably should have been part of KS6), the excellent ice catacombs, tunnels, goblin town, inside of a volcano, glacier crevasses, riverbeds, the list goes on. Plus they look like they could make for some interesting battle arenas for those who are more into skirmish gaming, with pieces like the natural bridge, stairway to violence, negative space options, cave cliffs, escarpments, scatter terrain of various sorts, etc.

And they also make nice dungeons! Way more versatile to me.

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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by Law » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:16 pm

I will add that I'm more comfortable with a smaller cavern, comprised mostly of just one room, than I would be with a dungeon that had that design.

For me, there are really two categories of DF settings - those which in large part serve as a backdrop for accessories (and figures) and those which are complete unto themselves.

Dungeons are a prime example of the former. Dungeons are, at their core, just a series of rooms. Until you place the bookshelves, tables, beds, torture equipment, tombs, traps, treasure, weapon racks, etc., they're just rooms. The DoD has given us the unprecedented ability to customize rooms by their architecture, but a real fully-built dungeon would have different rooms which serve different functions and which are "populated" accordingly.

A cave - a cave just isn't like that. Sure, one part of a cave could have water and another not. And a cave might have mushrooms or not. And now we'll see other ways to customize. But while these options will be fun - ultimately you don't need different "rooms" in a cave. Because a cave is just....a cave. KS6 will make populated caverns possible, and the bridge and the dock and the traps and so on will make it POSSIBLE to differentiate between rooms. But unlike with a dungeon, it still won't really be NECESSARY. So I'm fine with just one large cavern, maybe two linked by a small passage. Dungeon - one room? Hells no! I need to make as many as possible - because I want a mess hall and an armory and an archive and a torture chamber and a prison...

I'll add - for the record:

Cities require accessories. Citizens milling about, differentiations between homes and inns and shops and an open market and guild halls and govt buildings and money lenders and brothels - lots of ways to distinguish buildings or neighborhoods with accessories.

Castles don't NEED accessories. You can try to give a castle unique character, like you can a cavern, but ultimately a keep surrounded by high walls and a gatehouse is pretty self-sufficient. Like caverns, and unlike cities or dungeons, castles don't look strikingly empty if you skip the accessories.

Catacombs, Realm of the Ancients and the Den of Evil take it one step further. I actively dislike trying to create populated rooms in these spaces. Like caverns and castles, you could add elements to them. You could ofc always add defining features - a particularly ruined area, a fountain, a staircase - but none of that is NEEDED. But mostly, IMO, accessories look out of place on these settings. They're entirely self-sufficient and complete with the basic walls, floors and corners - trying to add beds or chairs or tables or bookshelves to any of them just looks odd.

So that's my long winded explanation for why I treat caverns and dungeons differently. With dungeons I really want lots of rooms - and I can build more rooms with the same number of walls and corners if I have them share. That also makes it all more compact and leaves no empty space on the table. With caverns, I don't need so many rooms - until now there hasn't really been a way to differentiate them anyway. And even when there is, unlike dungeons I don't really feel the need to use them all at once anyway. A big empty cavern, or one with some mushrooms, or one with a lake, is fine to me. Unlike a dungeon, where I want as many rooms as possible and a single chamber always feels like an excerpt from a dungeon and never like the whole thing.

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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:00 pm

Interesting .....

this thinking has made me realise why we don't want or need a cavern, we just have no a desire to have a cavern. Because we want total table coverage for a war game or skirmish game.

Caverns should have lots of claustrophobic tunnels and as Law just pointed out that leaves wide open dead space. For some reason we just had not made that connection.

We did get a fair amount of dungeon, without wanting a dungeon but felt it can be used for skirmish games and reading this got us to realise why we thought they could be used - because you don't have dead space walls are double sided.

As Mr Spock would say 'fascinating'

As an aside have managed to get the young bunnies to play some very simple DnD and its proven to be successful, so come the PM we might see if we can stretch to a starter cavern at least :)
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Re: What add-ons in the PM have you committed to?

Post by Law » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:42 am

I'm starting to realize that passages may be needed. I never used to use them - when building dungeons I prefer zero negative space and total table coverage. My recent pics show what I mean - a big rectangle of solid DF.

With resin caverns (never used KS2 for much), I accepted the more organic overall shape of a cavern setting, but I still exploited the double-sided nature of the S-shaped corner to share walls between "rooms" - and I generally built more open caverns that were mostly one large space. I didn't build anything that big, either, using cavern sets to make just one big cave at the end of my dungeons. When I used river and lake pieces, I'd place some of the freestanding walls with the water to create "tunnels," and I'd use ledge pieces from the chasm set to do multi-tiered caverns, but otherwise I didn't separate "rooms" for the most part.

But now I'm seeing that with KS6, even if I only get a fraction of what's available, I'll be making larger caverns. And I'm realizing that sharing walls between cavern "rooms" doesn't work as well as it does with dungeon rooms. It makes more sense to have full caverns linked by passages than to have them all clumped together with shared walls. It's less efficient this way - it leaves open table space so you need more room, and you need four corners for every cavern (at least!) whereas by sharing rooms you can get more complete rooms with fewer corners. But it will look better. It will feel more like proper caves. I may still have them share some walls - have a wall with a cave opening that leads, not to a narrow passage, but instead to a whole cavern chamber. But I'll also probably separate out some chambers with passages.

So - yeah. Sigh. Imma need passages.

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