Official PM video

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NiandoBG
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Re: Official PM video

Post by NiandoBG » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:49 am

Hi folks,

After watching the PM video here are my two cents.. ;)
Be aware that I worked for some years as a product manager. My cents maybe slightly biased with choices I had to made as an PM.

First of all, I really like the video. :D
It is well produced, informative and as usual Nate does is very enthusiastic. I enjoyed to watch it and I’m looking forward to the PM. :)

Foam core risers: I was one of the backers who’s asked for it. Therefore I’m happy that they offer it. I personally don’t need the stone texture on it. I guess that they a) did it to give some added value to the pieces and b) being able to charge a higher price because the offer something unique less comparable to cheap foam pieces which you may get sometimes as package material for free.
Despite all these reasonable decisions to do it that way, the price for the pieces is sadly above my pricing threshold for this kind of pieces. :(

Connector extension cords: just excellent, :D :D :D it increases the value of the packs and without rising the price of the pieces. I interpret this in two ways A) they are really committed to the light panels and it will play an “important” role in the future. Why? The wouldn’t add value to the pieces without increasing the pricing if it wouldn’t be an strategic piece! B) I expect a big price increase afterwards in retail. Why? They will try to compensate the additional costs in Retail afterwards which makes sense and rewards people who back new innovative stuff.

Banks Mega Packs: I like the idea of a Mega Packs. Savings on pieces are obviously not the way how DF sees Mega Packs. It’s more a good selection with the integration of some “rare” pieces. Some of you asked for the jumpy lava stone, here you get 4 of them. Well done. :D
By the way the jumpy lava stone explains the price difference between lava and CD.
They did the CD Version IMO because a lot of people argued that the did not saw the value in it during CD and wished to have backed more of them. Here we have it: DF listend to us and gave us what we asked for. :) :D
I will consider the mega pack as an option because I wanted to buy at least three bank add-on packs. Important for me is to get enough corner pieces. I often have the feeling that there are to few in there (looking at imperial streets, monster sewer set)...

Cerberus Warhound: I think it is a really nice move to offer it even if the stretch goals did not went that far. The pricing is IMO reasonable set. First) If you compare it to Wizkids preprinted miniatures (especially the box incentives) the price is in the range, or even a good deal. If you compare the unpainted version with bigger reaper models it is slightly more expensive but offers with the LED some additional value. Second) we did not get it during the KS because we did not made it stretch goal wise. For me the pricing is a good compromise to offer it afterwards but signal as well with the pricing: it is more expensive than it would have been during the KS if we would hit the stretch goal.
I’m in for one :D
more than 2,800 self painted dwarvenite pieces :)

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Re: Official PM video

Post by AnimeSensei » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:27 pm

Let's all calm down. The forum isn't really moderated as we're pretty low drama. I'd hope we can keep it that way.
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Oldent
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Re: Official PM video

Post by Oldent » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:18 pm

dice4hire wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:33 pm
Oldent wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 pm
dice4hire wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:23 pm
Actually I do not want DF to make minis. I have said that many times. Paint with a less broad brush.
I was not directing the comment to you, I should have tried to be clear :!: So the next time you are not quoted you should not feel the need to squeal like a stuck pig :!: :!: :!: I am sure you will want to keep your post count up. So Have at it :evil:
Then perhaps YOU should quote people. The fault is yours. I assume you know that you can mean one person or everyone else on earth sans yourself.
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dice4hire
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Re: Official PM video

Post by dice4hire » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:33 pm

Oldent wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 pm
dice4hire wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:23 pm
Actually I do not want DF to make minis. I have said that many times. Paint with a less broad brush.
I was not directing the comment to you, I should have tried to be clear :!: So the next time you are not quoted you should not feel the need to squeal like a stuck pig :!: :!: :!: I am sure you will want to keep your post count up. So Have at it :evil:
Then perhaps YOU should quote people. The fault is yours. I assume you know that you can mean one person or everyone else on earth sans yourself.
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Re: Official PM video

Post by Talistran » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:11 pm

dice4hire wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:39 pm
GardenDM wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:33 pm
One benefit Mega-packs (and/or encounters) sometimes provide over smaller packs is the ratio of various pieces. I haven't looked at the banks Mega-packs, so maybe doesn't apply here, but as an example the Doomroller encounter has a better mix of inside and outside corners relative to each other and straights than you can get by buying the individual add-ons.

So, yeah, sometimes the benefit is the piece combination more than the per-piece price.
That was very true of the mountains mega^pack. It is also nice when megapacks have new pieces, like the 4x4 floors mountains had. Or even a bonus mini.
Except... that bonus mini raised the price of the mega pack by at least $30. If they hadn't included the rock elemental, you could have had a significantly cheaper pack.

I wish DF would do what they are doing with Cerberus. Produce him and charge actual cost. Let the market decide if we want miniatures for the actual price that DF can produce them for... or if we are really just chasing after chase pieces.

You can probably guess how I feel about chase pieces. ;)

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Re: Official PM video

Post by Talistran » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:08 pm

Blue Prophet wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:23 pm
William wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:15 pm
The foam core risers are ridiculously priced, pass. :shock:
Black would have been just fine, if they could have priced them like typical foam core boards.

Lastly, Mega-Packs are not what I was asking for.
I'll probably pass on all of those new things. :|
The mini looks cool, but not sure I need a flickering pup.p.p. ;)
Pretty much agree.

I always try my best to calculate the Mega-Pack value versus the smaller packs, and they never seem to have much if any savings. They just cost more. I'll consider it, but likely pass too.
Mega-Packs (since KS5) have ranged from giving a small "free" item (like the throne in the Emporer's Mega Packs) to costing more than the sum of the parts. Usually, they are basically the same cost as building the mega pack from add-ons... except for the composition is usually slightly off so that you can't build the mega pack exactly.

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Re: Official PM video

Post by Talistran » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:07 pm

Oldent wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:18 pm
You want DF to make pre painted Miniatures then complain a bout the cost. This kind of thing drives me absolutely berserk :evil: :evil: :evil:
I have done nothing but complain about DF making miniatures. I'm not the only one. They utterly destroy (edit:
Ok, destroy is a harsh word... but they worsen the value of the terrain significantly) the cost of any Encounter or add-on cost they are in. This includes things like the Gorgon, which some may see as statues.

DF is in the terrain business. All of the "one-of" chase pieces increase the cost of the terrain (the thing I care for and want from DF) astronomically. Are their miniatures beautiful? Sure. But they cost 3-4 times more than they need to because of economy of scales. I have ZERO problems with their Town Guard, Rats, Lizardmen packs. People can take them or leave them... and they are reasonably priced. But the Gorgon, Sysrul (Sp?), Totems, Ravens, Etc... are making DF KSes worse, not better. IMO. ;)

Now, that said... I have no problem with the Cerberus. Why? Because he is alone. His costs haven't affected any of the terrain. They charge a high price, and anyone who wants him is welcome to pay it. Perfect. :)
Last edited by Talistran on Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official PM video

Post by subtalon » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:54 pm

Blue Prophet wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:23 pm
William wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:15 pm
The foam core risers are ridiculously priced, pass. :shock:
Black would have been just fine, if they could have priced them like typical foam core boards.

Lastly, Mega-Packs are not what I was asking for.
I'll probably pass on all of those new things. :|
The mini looks cool, but not sure I need a flickering pup.p.p. ;)
Pretty much agree.

I always try my best to calculate the Mega-Pack value versus the smaller packs, and they never seem to have much if any savings. They just cost more. I'll consider it, but likely pass too.
The real question is do you get some value on the Mega-Pack for regular stone banks, since they are including pieces not in the original Hellscape KS but things from CD it may take a bit of calculation. I personally wish I had gotten more CD banks, I focused on DH banks, so I may get some if they are reasonably priced.

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Re: Official PM video

Post by Oldent » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:41 pm

AnimeSensei wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:22 pm
Oldent wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 pm
dice4hire wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:23 pm
Actually I do not want DF to make minis. I have said that many times. Paint with a less broad brush.
I was not directing the comment to you, I should have tried to be clear :!: So the next time you are not quoted you should not feel the need to squeal like a stuck pig :!: :!: :!: I am sure you will want to keep your post count up. So Have at it :evil:
You doing ok? Kinda testy today. :(
I am, that is true. My comment was about how I feel and rhetorical.

You have made good points. I have not addressed them and do not disagree.
A point. The LED miniature is no more costly than a Lunch date.
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Re: Official PM video

Post by period3 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:31 pm

AnimeSensei wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:22 pm
Oldent wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:18 pm
You want DF to make pre painted Miniatures then complain a bout the cost. This kind of thing drives me absolutely berserk :evil: :evil: :evil:
No, I don't. Not necessarily. While I like the minis, I don't ask specifically for them, and the main reason I buy DF is the terrain; minis are far down the list.

I want DF to better manage economies of scale with their minis inside of their kickstarters. I used the Sysuul example as it's a LED piece with a complex paint job, just like Cerberus will be. The seated Sysuul figure costs us half the price (even at the retail markup over KS) or less due to economies of scale as it's included in a relatively cheap pack of other items. (ie: it's not in a $280 pack like the Abyssal Vermillion)

I don't care if they do minis. I think the way to do them however is in a pack so they can get multiple presses out of the mold. While the DF tower defenders, guard, ratmen, etc. are more expensive than a Reaper Bones figure, they are pretty close to what you'd pay for a WOTC/Paizo prepainted mini. When you have them as a one-off like Cerberus, it causes their cost to rise. Even at $15-20, Sysuul is expensive, but compare her cost to the other, more often manufactured LED pieces in the store, and the price is around $10-12 per piece.

I realize we all don't need 8x LED Cerberus or Sysuuls like we may need 8x LED walls, but having a focused goal of economies of scale for the DF minis, if they choose to do them, would be of benefit to the backers/buyers. Cerberus by himself costs $39. The "mini" of Sysuul standing up stand alone costs $39 as well. The 2-headed croc is now in the store as a stand alone at $20. It's cheaper because it's in the Acid Bath encounter (and was made in KS3) and it costs less to make due to the higher quantity being produced.

Talistran has some good posts about it that are more eloquent than I can do.

What I want is if they are committed to doing minis, have an add-on pack that includes all of them from the Kickstarter. I feel it would reduce the cost per mini.

But I'm sitting here on the outside; I'll roll with whatever DF decides to do and I'll not buy what isn't within my budget based on usage and value. No worries here.
I liked the ks3 and ks4 mini packs. I got a whole bunch of minis for about 50-80$, all prepainted, all 28mm. Larger minis don't interest me, and Cerberus is more than I want to spend on a single mini.

I did like the mimic from KS5 though, the only exception.

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