What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Erenor Silvershield
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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by Erenor Silvershield » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:38 pm

Rabbit Burner wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:42 am So DF are creating alt colour schemes for CD where they currently don't exist, so for instance the Cavern Core set we believe is going to be offered in Underdoom and Hellscape.

The issue we see here and with Caverns, Dungeons and to an extent Castles is now many different sculpts do you need? and who is buying them? Also how many times can you go back to these biomes with a major KS?

In OTA there is a lot of chatter for different paint schemes, but if you were to add them up you are talking maybe 10 DooFers, OtA mostly pulls about 80 to 120 viewers live of which many do not saying anything apart from the giveaway keyword ;)

We would argue that OtA is watched by DF fans, most of which would by DF Fudge. So using OtA as a gauge of popularity is dangerous in our opinion.

Alt paint schemes do seem like ideal candidates for preorders.

BTW we would totally buy DF fudge :)
I think the DF team is using a pretty methodical approach to the additional paint schemes. When they started their caverns core revamp, they did three new configurations in regular caverns paint and one in ice. Ice sold well and quickly (I wish i knew how much and how fast, but by the time i’d Saved up for another ice core it was sold out!) so they reordered and are now expanding the line and also including an Underdoom core. It sounds like as these sell well they’ll shoot for more core and add-on packs in the other paint schemes. I think it emboldened them with a Hellscape restock as well. With the different casting color it would be more cost effective to try and include some add ons in an initial run, instead of just doing a Hellscape core. I look forward to DF’s expansion of their existing product offerings with the caverns sculpts and I’ll do my best to contribute to their success. Runic column in Hellscape, please!

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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:59 am

Erenor Silvershield wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:38 pm
Rabbit Burner wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:42 am
...
I think the DF team is using a pretty methodical approach to the additional paint schemes. When they started their caverns core revamp, they did three new configurations in regular caverns paint and one in ice. Ice sold well and quickly (I wish i knew how much and how fast, but by the time i’d Saved up for another ice core it was sold out!) so they reordered and are now expanding the line and also including an Underdoom core. It sounds like as these sell well they’ll shoot for more core and add-on packs in the other paint schemes. I think it emboldened them with a Hellscape restock as well. With the different casting color it would be more cost effective to try and include some add ons in an initial run, instead of just doing a Hellscape core. I look forward to DF’s expansion of their existing product offerings with the caverns sculpts and I’ll do my best to contribute to their success. Runic column in Hellscape, please!
What was totally missing from our post is that we are talking mostly about future paint schemes that some DooFers want, sandstone etc.

We understand DFs decision to expand existing colour schemes across their product line, most specifically in Caverns as they expand the Ice and Hellscape offerings. They have some hard data to work out the potential sales of these.

But not convinced there is enough need for new ones with current data. Of course a new scheme may come out of future Kickstarters that may give DF the data they need.
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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:15 am

period3 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:47 am That works great of there's no competition. Otherwise, others will do it in greater volumes and cheaper.

I don't know anything really about business, but it seems to me that Disney is nothing like DF, and has a way bigger moat filled with all manner of unholy guardians (patents, lawyers, gigantic capital expenditures, a 100 year history, goodwill and nostalgia across generations, unlimited money). DF has a very narrow moat with a few whales in it who buy everything no matter the cost, and a top notch creative team. In general though, every single KS is a referendum on whether what they made is cool enough.

So far it is, but if I were in that situation I would not be leaving money on the table.
The observations about scarcity that large companies create seem on point, but I'm not convinced a small group can replicate this. If you're not maximizing profits and you don't have a big moat, you're giving space to your competitors to take your territory.
Part of the point Law is making is that what is the figure that maximises profits?

They have a figure that they need to make to consider a KS or a restock a success, as long as they meet those targets they stay in business and should be able to grow, assuming they have their numbers right. So far they seem to be doing that successfully.

Right now there are DooFers that want more product that is not in stock, that seems like profit that DF cannot realise because of its current business practice.

So should they raise their expectations by ordering more product for the store?
But how much more? they have a minimum requirement from the factory to enable DF to sell at the price advertised.

Whatever they order runs the risk of not selling, thus taking up capital and basically profit that they have currently realised by their current practices.

Pre order you would help.

'Wishlists' and 'Inform me when in stock' indicators do not translate into sales, they show a level of interest but definitely not guaranteed sales.

So it would be a gamble to build up their stock and a big one in DF's current business plan, of 1 big KS a year.

We wonder if these more regular restocks and 'KS8 Cities 2: Big Walls' being pushed back until 2022 are a result of Wildlands being Wildly successful and so giving DF more capital to play with, allowing them to be more flexible.

Law very nice post, eloquent and succinct, even we understood it :)

We trust DF to do what is in their best interests and therefore ours.
Not to say they should not be open to ideas and advice ;)
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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by zenako » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:46 am

There is one part of the whole production equation that folks outside the firm really have no good information on, and that is how the content of the molds was distributed. It sounds like the factory used to create them to optimize production for the KS quantities and packs that were ordered. There are certain features of tiles that can work well to combine into the same mold, while others not so much. It would be hard to produce a lot of small 2x2 floor tiles in the same mold you were casting parts of the Cave Escarpment for example. Even thou the escarpment is a multi-piece casting, it still has different fill rates and cooling rates for optimized production in the system. I know I and a few others could make some pretty educated guesses about what might make sense, they are just that guesses.

Why this matters is not so much that if a given pack is spread over 3 molds is not that you have a lot of extra castings of "other parts", is that you also have to swap in and out three different molds, and each time you do that incurs a significant cost in time and money. I would also not be surprised if some of the simpler tiles appear on different mold setups to once again optimize production. Ideally, each mold would only contain tiles appearing in a given pack (or packs if larger) so to get more Banks for example, the 4 basic styles that appeared in OG DH would all be part of one mold and in the right ratios. Given that those were a late addition, that might even be the case and all the banks have similar molding parameters (basically smallish largely 2D tiles). Something like the Apex is also likely all on one mold, since none of those parts can be used without all the others.

So when we look at some of the new packs DF is offering, the ratio of tile contents in them, like for the new ruins or Erinthor for example, is likely being driven by existing mold ratios in the molds where those tiles appear. When doing a large run for a KS, you can build in a certain level of overcasting/waste into the system to account for defects or errors that might be made so precise ratios of tiles is secondary to molding efficiency. For smaller production runs like a restock, those production concerns become far more of an issue that would impact costs. I know some of us would love to crunch the numbers, if for nothing more than the satisfaction of trying to optimize a problem solution. For those folks, even thou it would be some work, it would also be "fun". Just the way some of us are wired.

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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:50 am

zenako wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:46 am There is one part of the whole production equation that folks outside the firm really have no good information on, and that is how the content of the molds was distributed. It sounds like the factory used to create them to optimize production for the KS quantities and packs that were ordered.

...
DF have confirmed that mold configuration is down to the factory and they tailor it based on KS orders.

So mold configuration is optimized for the KS, any consideration for future orders or sets would be a secondary consideration at best and mostly likely just not considered at all.
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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by kitenerd » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:30 pm

Repeating what has been said:

1) Sexy videos draw the eyes, they garner attention, but they don't drive up sales

2) "Boring low tech videos" showing how each piece looks and lining it up with pieces it is intended to compliment are invaluable to the serious DF collector looking to maxinimize their modular buy - Nate did this in KS2 and it was super cool - more of these

3) Each pledge level, encounter, whatever needs to have a build photo and one or two alternates displayed prominently - they did this in KS1 and it was HUGELY helpful to those of us who did not own any, to see the different things we could make with even just a few sets - The Wildlands alternate builds were hidden where only a true fan would find them - it should not be that hard for a casual looker to see what they can do with $3-500 and get tempted to give it a try

4) Functional stretch goals - enough said

What would make me spend more?

Discount - pure and simple. If i am saving 10-15% i will probably hold my purchases until retail. I will spend about $500 in the KS, but save the rest until i can see how folks are using the actual pieces, what i am still excited about and what didn't turn out as cool as i thought. Want me to stretch to $1,000 or more? - TEMPT ME! make me feel like it is too good a deal to not pass up - DoD was the last time i way over bought to get the discount - and i kind of resented it because i had to buy encounters in a certain order to get the discount. I would have spent more if i could have gotten any 6 encounters for a discount or whatever. Some of the later encounters intrigued me more, but i had to buy from the beginning...
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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by Clint_Lundgren » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:16 pm

I agree with the discount point - nothing will trigger me like that will. Reaper are the masters of this - you feel like if you didn't buy during the KS, you are doing it wrong (I often do it wrong).

On the other hand, I'm not sure that DF has huge margins to play with. Their product is such good value that I can't imagine they could discount it by a ton and still be profitable.

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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by Law » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:15 am

I'd love a discount. I'm not sure how feasible it is with these larger and more complex pieces. It seems that lately the margins on them is too small to offer much of a discount.

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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by 13th Warlock » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:28 pm

The number one thing that limits what I spend on a DF kickstarter is how much money I have when it's running. They always manage to have more stuff for sale than I have play money to drop down. So, I usually drop a chunk on the pledge, then another chunk when the order is finalized a month or whatever later... because I have more play money in another month! Then this time, there was something that went on, I forgot what it was, and I was able to juggle a little more money in and revise my order again.
I'll be honest, if I had the option of upping my pledge right now, I'd drop another few hundred bucks without hesitation.
My suggestion... figure out a way to give people the opportunity to add to their pledges after the KS.
My second suggestion... release teaser pre-orders and sell something like a gift certificate for KS in advance of the KS... that way I can buy stuff in the months prior to the KS and will have more to spend on the launch. Yes, I could just do this myself and squirrel money away through the year like some people do in preparation for the KS release, but even if I did that, when it came time to pull the actual trigger, I don't think I could drop $3,000 on DF at a single sitting.

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Re: What Can DF Do to Make You Spend More In KS8?

Post by dice4hire » Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:45 am

Adding some kind of teaser order halfway from the PM to fulfillment sounds like a good idea if the factory would stand still for it. They could just feature sets they need to sell more of, and try to drum up more targeted sales that way.

I know i would add a couple to few hundred bucks now if I could also. That would more than double my actual Ks+PM order this time around.
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