4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

User avatar
dice4hire
Minotaur Lord
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 3891
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 7:13 pm
Location: Nagoya Japan

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by dice4hire » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:55 pm

True, 4E is all about niches, though most classes do dabble a bit in a second role. It is indeed a simple system to play especially for casters, who have a very very reduced ability to pull rabbits out of their hats spellwise like they do in other editions. I remember the literally thousand spells a wizard could access in 3E/3.5E. Wow, just wow!!! Rituals do not even come close to making up for that.

But DF has helped out 4E games immensely, as you can see the dangers that brute could push you into. Being able to say "What you see on the map is what is there" has helped our games immensely.
A pretty decent Docent of Valoria

User avatar
fnordfriendly
Orc
Orc
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 11:37 am

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by fnordfriendly » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:40 pm

dice4hire wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:19 pm
I still play 4E and did not make the plunge into 5E. Bought the books, looked them over and then sold them. Cannot relaly critique 5E. I like 4E for its movement and its ease of play and modding. It is so easy to take a monster statblock, change a few words, and have a completely different monster. 4E seems far more resiliant to the DM messing with players also, with pushes, pulls and other effects than other editions are.

I have had some of my best combats in D&D by having random effects inthe combat, like random teleporting of all monsters and players each round. Very tactical, and that tactical combat works great with terrain like 5E. To me other editions it is just too easy to be a potted plant and sit in one square the entire combat, and indeed sometimes it is very difficult to get out of that one square.
In 4e, everyone has a role in combat - for PCs you're a leader, striker, controller or defender. Sometimes a combination, but usually you have a job to do, and your party depends on it. Monsters too - brutes, soldiers, skirmishers, lurkers, controllers... anyone could still do anything, but you're exceptionally good at your thing. With no real multiclassing, this could sometimes get tedious pushing that same button over and over, but at the same time it offered niche protection for your character.

User avatar
dice4hire
Minotaur Lord
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 3891
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 7:13 pm
Location: Nagoya Japan

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by dice4hire » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:19 pm

I still play 4E and did not make the plunge into 5E. Bought the books, looked them over and then sold them. Cannot relaly critique 5E. I like 4E for its movement and its ease of play and modding. It is so easy to take a monster statblock, change a few words, and have a completely different monster. 4E seems far more resiliant to the DM messing with players also, with pushes, pulls and other effects than other editions are.

I have had some of my best combats in D&D by having random effects inthe combat, like random teleporting of all monsters and players each round. Very tactical, and that tactical combat works great with terrain like 5E. To me other editions it is just too easy to be a potted plant and sit in one square the entire combat, and indeed sometimes it is very difficult to get out of that one square.
A pretty decent Docent of Valoria

User avatar
fnordfriendly
Orc
Orc
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 11:37 am

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by fnordfriendly » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:55 pm

ForestZ wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm
I've lived through every edition's encounter building process. 5ths is a little reminiscent of 3rds, but not nearly as bad, thank goodness. That said, it's a far cry from 4ths. But 4th was all about balance, down to its core, which made encounter building so easy. That was its strength, *and* its weakness IMHO, as it lost a lot of flexibility. But all editions with flexibility in design suffered from not knowing exactly how powerful any group of monsters were. But yes, recapturing that RP spirit was what eventually caused me to examine all the warts of 4th edition and decide to move past it. But I still mine the books on occasion for ideas!
Very well articulated, and a great summation. Matthew Colville did a youtube video for his channel that gave some ideas for using 4e monster mechanics to spice up 5e combat. Toward the end, 4e monster and encounter design was pretty well streamlined, and we saw great content coming out in Dragon and Dungeon. I wish 4e did a better job with multiclassing. 5e does well with curbing the dependency on magic items, which is one for the 'pros' column.

User avatar
ForestZ
Ogre
Ogre
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:16 am
Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by ForestZ » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm

fnordfriendly wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:10 pm
ForestZ wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:15 pm
Awesome, thanks for sharing! I love playing 4th for its entire run, but I don't miss (most) of it now that I've moved on to 5th. I will say that encounter building was super easy/fun/exciting in 4th though. Love your setup, and looking forward to seeing more revealed!
Thanks very much! To your point on encounter building - I couldn't agree more. I also love 5e and how they've recaptured the spirit of roleplaying, but as a DM, 5e encounter building baffles me. As written in the 5e DMG, building encounters is a complex process. They revisited it in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, presenting a totally different method, but it's also too complex for my tastes.
I've lived through every edition's encounter building process. 5ths is a little reminiscent of 3rds, but not nearly as bad, thank goodness. That said, it's a far cry from 4ths. But 4th was all about balance, down to its core, which made encounter building so easy. That was its strength, *and* its weakness IMHO, as it lost a lot of flexibility. But all editions with flexibility in design suffered from not knowing exactly how powerful any group of monsters were. But yes, recapturing that RP spirit was what eventually caused me to examine all the warts of 4th edition and decide to move past it. But I still mine the books on occasion for ideas!

User avatar
fnordfriendly
Orc
Orc
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 11:37 am

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by fnordfriendly » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:10 pm

ForestZ wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:15 pm
Awesome, thanks for sharing! I love playing 4th for its entire run, but I don't miss (most) of it now that I've moved on to 5th. I will say that encounter building was super easy/fun/exciting in 4th though. Love your setup, and looking forward to seeing more revealed!
Thanks very much! To your point on encounter building - I couldn't agree more. I also love 5e and how they've recaptured the spirit of roleplaying, but as a DM, 5e encounter building baffles me. As written in the 5e DMG, building encounters is a complex process. They revisited it in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, presenting a totally different method, but it's also too complex for my tastes.

User avatar
ForestZ
Ogre
Ogre
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:16 am
Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by ForestZ » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:15 pm

Awesome, thanks for sharing! I love playing 4th for its entire run, but I don't miss (most) of it now that I've moved on to 5th. I will say that encounter building was super easy/fun/exciting in 4th though. Love your setup, and looking forward to seeing more revealed!

User avatar
fnordfriendly
Orc
Orc
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 11:37 am

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by fnordfriendly » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:55 pm

AnimeSensei wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:36 pm
Very organized! I recognize many of the things that I own too. Glad I'm on the right track!

And for what it's worth, 4E was excellent at combat. I agree. But I wasn't a fan of the stuff out of combat.
:) ... Organization is easier when you're prepping to run a module rather than something you wrote yourself, IMO.

We like 4e combat a lot. It can bog down at higher levels, but Essentials fixed some of that. That said, I'd say 5e is a better expression of D&D, being more true to the hobby's roots. Though if you want to go really old school, I'd say pick up a copy of the Rules Cyclopdia and call it a day.

I'd go with Savage Worlds as the next best system to use with DF and other 1" grid terrain.

User avatar
AnimeSensei
Minotaur Lord
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 4164
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:03 pm
Location: South Weber, UT

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by AnimeSensei » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:36 pm

Very organized! I recognize many of the things that I own too. Glad I'm on the right track!

And for what it's worth, 4E was excellent at combat. I agree. But I wasn't a fan of the stuff out of combat.
106 Resin and 159 Dwarvenite Sets/Packs Owned

User avatar
fnordfriendly
Orc
Orc
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 11:37 am

Re: 4e Reavers of Harkenwold Toadwallow Cavern: Spoilers

Post by fnordfriendly » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:28 pm

The rest of the Toadwallow Caverns is hidden beneath the velvety shroud of fog of war, I'll post more as we continue to play it out. So far in encounter 1, the pixie flew into the entrance cavern, separating himself from the party and consequently getting charged by 4 sentry bullywugs. He went down twice, and the cleric had to use her two Healing Words and her one Cure Light Wounds - all her available healing! The dwarf knight used his hero's armor ability to allow the pixie to use a healing surge, so the fey paladin survived. The elf ranger stood on a boulder, giving her line of sight to the bullywugs, and used her Clever Shot to slide them over the edge. She did this twice - both times they failed their saving throw to avoid going overboard. The first took 1d10 falling damage and fell prone. The second she wanted to land on top of the first to knock them both prone - I let her do that instead of the 1d10 falling damage it would have taken.

Four bullywugs were not an easy encounter for four 2nd level heroes and a 1st level hireling. They're taking a short rest to heal up and recharge their encounter powers before going at it again.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests