What Can We Improve for KS6?

Talistran
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Talistran » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 pm

I totally agree with your points here Kryzsko.

Except for I will be buying big into KS6 IF it matches KS2, and I too have 10 sets... but I bought factory painted so it is easy to integrate IF they match paint jobs :)

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Kryzsko » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:52 pm

Talistran wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:43 pm
*All of the following reply is based off decades of owning and running manufacturing companies that makes DF blocks for the real construction industry (i.e. precast; if you have ever been to Las Vegas, most of those concrete statues, balustrades, columns, caps, benches, fences, etc are from me) It is just my opinion, and does not represent any inside knowledge of DF).

Yep. It has been brought up before, and is worth examining. However, it is harder for DF to plan on because they don't know how many of which parts will be bought. While the idea is that they'll sell enough units to bring the overall price of the unit down, thus we get a stretch goal, generally (in manufacturing), they have to meet a minimum number of "pours" in order to get that price break. By offering SG's by $$ instead of being attached to specific units (by pack/encounters like KS3/KS4/KS5 or basic packs like KS1/KS2), there is a little more risk in offering them.

So, that means that EVERY encounter/add-on pack will need their price increased by some percentage (let's say 10% just to have this discussion). And now DF can use that to pay for the SG's. Now, instead of pushing people towards certain projects (meaning the more of them we sell, the less they cost per unit), they are having to guess how many of each unit will sell. And don't get me wrong, they can guess and get close enough to make it work. Because they'll guess high on some and low on others and they will off-set each other overall (most likely).

But what it also means is that unless DF is VERY kind and willing to take a larger risk, we the consumer don't get "free" stretch goals. Instead, we are paying for them by "overpaying" 10% on every purchase. And then certain units do really well and DF gets a price break on them, DF is the one who profits, not the consumer.

Of course, DF could offset this by "overcharging" 10% on every unit and giving out 13% in Stretch goals... which is part of the balance.

It will be interesting to see what they can come up with. :)
I agree with you in that I don't think stretch goals are ever truly free. I think they are always budgeted for based on how much money is brought in over the course of the campaign. I don't think the stretch goals in KS1&2 were free but it worked out fine.

KS 5 was the first time stretch goals were encounter only and it was also the first time I couldn't care less if we hit stretch goals. During the course of the campaign, I was not sure what I was going to get so I didn't know if a particular stretch goal was even going to apply to me. Now in the pledge manager, I ended up getting an unpainted DoD because I had gotten a bonus from work but I did not know that would be an option during the KS and it definitely will not be the case this year (even if it did I would not go all in again).

One of the reasons people recruit other backers is to help hit stretch goals and if people are not invested in the stretch goals then you may as well not have any. I honestly don't think KS5 would have ended will less money if each encounter had been complete at launch and they started with 5 encounters and a few add-on packs and then they unlocked new encounters when we hit specific funding levels. I found the whole stretch goal chart confusing at first glance.

I just know KS5 left many people out when it came to stretch goals because they were not interested in the specific encounters, and many of those people were longtime customers. That will likely be me this time because I don't need 12 encounters of caverns when I already have 10 sets and a ton of add-ons from KS2 (that I have already painted myself and look great). So if DF wants people like me to care about hitting stretch goals then they need a system more like KS1,2, and 3.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Talistran » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:43 pm

Kryzsko wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:58 pm
Why not just make stretch goals based on money spent rather than on encounters or sets? So if someone spends $200 (or what ever amount) they get one set of stretch goals then at $450 they get 2 sets and so on. I don’t know what the dollar amount should be for each level but something along those lines.

This does a few thing:

1. It rewards everyone for spending more money (not just people who buy certain sets).

2. This encourages people to buy more add-ons sets because that money spent can potentially get them more stretch goals.

3. Everyone over the threshold dollar amount has a vested interest in hitting the stretch goals, rather than only the people getting a particular encounter.

4. It does not leave out long time customers that have a lot of KS2 (like KS5 did) that don’t need all the pieces form the encounters.

5. It won’t feel as though things were artificially removed from encounters to be added back in a stretch goals.

Just an idea.
*All of the following reply is based off decades of owning and running manufacturing companies that makes DF blocks for the real construction industry (i.e. precast; if you have ever been to Las Vegas, most of those concrete statues, balustrades, columns, caps, benches, fences, etc are from me) It is just my opinion, and does not represent any inside knowledge of DF).

Yep. It has been brought up before, and is worth examining. However, it is harder for DF to plan on because they don't know how many of which parts will be bought. While the idea is that they'll sell enough units to bring the overall price of the unit down, thus we get a stretch goal, generally (in manufacturing), they have to meet a minimum number of "pours" in order to get that price break. By offering SG's by $$ instead of being attached to specific units (by pack/encounters like KS3/KS4/KS5 or basic packs like KS1/KS2), there is a little more risk in offering them.

So, that means that EVERY encounter/add-on pack will need their price increased by some percentage (let's say 10% just to have this discussion). And now DF can use that to pay for the SG's. Now, instead of pushing people towards certain projects (meaning the more of them we sell, the less they cost per unit), they are having to guess how many of each unit will sell. And don't get me wrong, they can guess and get close enough to make it work. Because they'll guess high on some and low on others and they will off-set each other overall (most likely).

But what it also means is that unless DF is VERY kind and willing to take a larger risk, we the consumer don't get "free" stretch goals. Instead, we are paying for them by "overpaying" 10% on every purchase. And then certain units do really well and DF gets a price break on them, DF is the one who profits, not the consumer.

Of course, DF could offset this by "overcharging" 10% on every unit and giving out 13% in Stretch goals... which is part of the balance.

It will be interesting to see what they can come up with. :)

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kitenerd » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:49 am

Kryzsko wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:58 pm
Why not just make stretch goals based on money spent rather than on encounters or sets? So if someone spends $200 (or what ever amount) they get one set of stretch goals then at $450 they get 2 sets and so on. I don’t know what the dollar amount should be for each level but something along those lines.

This does a few thing:

1. It rewards everyone for spending more money (not just people who buy certain sets).

2. This encourages people to buy more add-ons sets because that money spent can potentially get them more stretch goals.

3. Everyone over the threshold dollar amount has a vested interest in hitting the stretch goals, rather than only the people getting a particular encounter.

4. It does not leave out long time customers that have a lot of KS2 (like KS5 did) that don’t need all the pieces form the encounters.

5. It won’t feel as though things were artificially removed from encounters to be added back in a stretch goals.

Just an idea.
+1 to this - i have been saying this and saying this - i hope they listen

EVERY backer should be invested in EVERY milestone - otherwise it is no fun to troll the KS

why would i wait up until 3:17 AM to see the next SG drop when i don't even get it???
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by GardenDM » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:30 pm

Kryzsko wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:58 pm
Why not just make stretch goals based on money spent rather than on encounters or sets? So if someone spends $200 (or what ever amount) they get one set of stretch goals then at $450 they get 2 sets and so on. I don’t know what the dollar amount should be for each level but something along those lines.

This does a few thing:

1. It rewards everyone for spending more money (not just people who buy certain sets).

2. This encourages people to buy more add-ons sets because that money spent can potentially get them more stretch goals.

3. Everyone over the threshold dollar amount has a vested interest in hitting the stretch goals, rather than only the people getting a particular encounter.

4. It does not leave out long time customers that have a lot of KS2 (like KS5 did) that don’t need all the pieces form the encounters.

5. It won’t feel as though things were artificially removed from encounters to be added back in a stretch goals.

Just an idea.
I also like this approach and proposed something similar in the "Best KS" thread. And if you stop and think about it, this was pretty close to KS1 & KS2 where the # of stretch goals was proportional to the pledge and the add-ons were more limited (although slightly less so in KS2).

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by William » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:15 pm

Kryzsko wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:58 pm
Why not just make stretch goals based on money spent rather than on encounters or sets? So if someone spends $200 (or what ever amount) they get one set of stretch goals then at $450 they get 2 sets and so on. I don’t know what the dollar amount should be for each level but something along those lines.

This does a few thing:

1. It rewards everyone for spending more money (not just people who buy certain sets).

2. This encourages people to buy more add-ons sets because that money spent can potentially get them more stretch goals.

3. Everyone over the threshold dollar amount has a vested interest in hitting the stretch goals, rather than only the people getting a particular encounter.

4. It does not leave out long time customers that have a lot of KS2 (like KS5 did) that don’t need all the pieces form the encounters.

5. It won’t feel as though things were artificially removed from encounters to be added back in a stretch goals.

Just an idea.
............................................................And it's a good one.

Wish this would have been in effect during KS3.
I've minimized my orders since then.
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( aka: Rock Breaker Bill - Column Barron of BRoM )

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Kryzsko » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:58 pm

Why not just make stretch goals based on money spent rather than on encounters or sets? So if someone spends $200 (or what ever amount) they get one set of stretch goals then at $450 they get 2 sets and so on. I don’t know what the dollar amount should be for each level but something along those lines.

This does a few thing:

1. It rewards everyone for spending more money (not just people who buy certain sets).

2. This encourages people to buy more add-ons sets because that money spent can potentially get them more stretch goals.

3. Everyone over the threshold dollar amount has a vested interest in hitting the stretch goals, rather than only the people getting a particular encounter.

4. It does not leave out long time customers that have a lot of KS2 (like KS5 did) that don’t need all the pieces form the encounters.

5. It won’t feel as though things were artificially removed from encounters to be added back in a stretch goals.

Just an idea.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kitenerd » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:01 pm

geekjeff wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:27 am
Sysuul also got unbundled from the Shrine, very affordably.
Huzzah for this - I for one was thrilled to be able to own the poster boy without having to buy the press that printed the poster!

I can make a little temple and a LOT of doom ;)
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Kryzsko » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:55 am

geekjeff wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:27 am
DF has definitely taken the feedback on Capstone pieces to heart. While there may be some special pieces along those lines in Encounters for KS6, they also want to provide more affordable ways to collect them without requiring pockets deep enough to buy the Whole Doomchilada.

They were meant to be the cherry on top of an Encounter. Things just got kinda carried away with the scale of the campaign.

We should note though that specifically with the Abyssal Vermillion, the Lava Bridge got split up for the Pledge Manager and the Vermillion went into the least expensive section. $175/224 I think, if you absolutely had to have a Vermillion. (I absolutely had to have one. ;) )
Sysuul also got unbundled from the Shrine, very affordably. I think the most “expensive to collect” sculpt actually ended up being the Gorgon Statue.
I am glad to hear they broke up the Lava Bridge set (again I got the DoD so I did not pay attention to the individual encounters), but that was just an example. I am glad to hear the DF staff is listening and that does not surprise me. They are a good bunch of people. If they have "capstones" again I just hope there is a capstone pack or some other easy way for everyone to have access to those fantastic pieces. Keep up the good work, and I know KS6 will be fantastic as always.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:09 am

GODofwar wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:54 pm
Rabbit Burner wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:39 am
Interesting conundrum DF have,

BTW we think the second DF KS this year can not be seen as a second DF KS - if that makes sense ? - it is a small mini only KS with most likely no to very little impact on KSVI.
Anybody else notice that Bun Rab has more and more shifted into the Imperial We? Could it be that Precious is going a wee bit to the megalo side? ....have to watch these Lagomorphs carefully (sharpening weasel incisors....)
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Totus KS Delenda Sunt, Except KS5

I think, dear weasel, that we have always used the pronoun 'we', though obviously there can only be one set of paws on the keyboard, all Mythrasian Lagomorphs form a collective Gestalt or a Hive Mind so my posts are our posts.

Feel free to check all our posts to confirm this in your suspicious Mustela tiny mind
DevGuy wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:59 am
DF is clearly marketing to those of us with disposable income, and I suppose they either see capstone pieces as a small reward for big spenders, or they believe it will encourage increased spending. Or both.

While I might prefer greater access to specific pieces or multiples thereof, buying just those pieces I need is not going to be profitable for DF, it seems. Fine. If I can’t afford something, I don’t buy it.

But then again... I mean, just look at Maserati; those guys are downright punishing me because I can’t afford one!

Reminds me of an old saying; “Marxists don’t care for the downtrodden, they just hate the rich!”.
Great post DevGuy :)

We think these were intended as rewards rather than enticements, but people see things in different ways and all are allowed their take on it.
geekjeff wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:27 am
DF has definitely taken the feedback on Capstone pieces to heart. While there may be some special pieces along those lines in Encounters for KS6, they also want to provide more affordable ways to collect them without requiring pockets deep enough to buy the Whole Doomchilada.

They were meant to be the cherry on top of an Encounter. Things just got kinda carried away with the scale of the campaign.

We should note though that specifically with the Abyssal Vermillion, the Lava Bridge got split up for the Pledge Manager and the Vermillion went into the least expensive section. $175/224 I think, if you absolutely had to have a Vermillion. (I absolutely had to have one. ;) )
Sysuul also got unbundled from the Shrine, very affordably. I think the most “expensive to collect” sculpt actually ended up being the Gorgon Statue.
We saw the so called capstone or chase pieces as rewards/cherries given to those that commit their hard earned cash to the encounter.

We realise that some backers see this differently.

For example:
We liked the Table and Mini Dungeon in Zaltar's Game Room and hoped it would be part of a megapack, the Table was part of Eldrids Mystic Trove but not the Mini Dungeon - bum!

Some see it as a ploy of DF to encourage you to buy the encounter just to get the mini dungeon and see the Mini Dungeon as a 'chase' piece (already voiced our opinion on those ;)).
We saw it as a reward for those prepared to get Zaltar's Game Room, which we were not prepared to get.

The encounters we did get were Gorgon Tiers, Lava Bridge and The Shrine of Sysuul. We did not get these encounters because of the Gorgon statue, Vermillion or Sysuul. We got them because they give us a lot of cool pieces to create environments we will use in our gaming.
So we saw the Gorgon statue, Vermillion or Sysuul as a nice reward for us sinking that amount of cash into the Kickstarter.
(OK so the EIGHT! Golems might have helped us in deciding on Gorgon Tiers ;) )

Having said all that we would not have minded if DF had created a creature mega pack where all the encounter creatures could be had for a more affordable price. (still would not have got us the mini dungeon *sniff)

It sucks to see a piece you really like but cannot afford because of the extras you get with it :(

Hoping DF adapt so that KSVI has more affordable reward pieces. So encouraging words from geekjeff :D
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