What Can We Improve for KS6?

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Forar80
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Forar80 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:51 pm

Talistran wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:43 pm
It has been brought up before, and is worth examining. However, it is harder for DF to plan on because they don't know how many of which parts will be bought. While the idea is that they'll sell enough units to bring the overall price of the unit down, thus we get a stretch goal, generally (in manufacturing), they have to meet a minimum number of "pours" in order to get that price break. By offering SG's by $$ instead of being attached to specific units (by pack/encounters like KS3/KS4/KS5 or basic packs like KS1/KS2), there is a little more risk in offering them.

So, that means that EVERY encounter/add-on pack will need their price increased by some percentage (let's say 10% just to have this discussion). And now DF can use that to pay for the SG's. Now, instead of pushing people towards certain projects (meaning the more of them we sell, the less they cost per unit), they are having to guess how many of each unit will sell. And don't get me wrong, they can guess and get close enough to make it work. Because they'll guess high on some and low on others and they will off-set each other overall (most likely).
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how this works out.

With a setup like KSV, they already have to guess how popular a given stretch goal will be, and as we saw in previous comments, some pieces (and entire encounters) proved less popular than anticipated, like the Burrows. They have to guess/hope/assume that enough demand will exist for pretty much everything, especially in the bigger/later/more expensive Encounters. Early ones that almost everyone who doesn't go A La Carte will get them are easy to estimate; as long as the campaign gets big enough, they're set.

Setting the stretch goals/bonuses by a flat value means that they end up taking those pieces and basically applying 1+ per backer (assuming a breakdown like was originally suggested). So instead of "ooops, we only need like 500 of X piece, that was a lot of time and effort for something that didn't attract as much attention as we expected", they know for a fact they'll need a substantial number of ALL of the stretch goal items.

Enhancing an encounter only matters to those getting the encounter, and remains an unknown quantity of effectiveness/value/use of time and effort until the Pledge Manager lands and the waveform collapses, as it were.

Attaching SG's to specific encounters leaves out whatever percentage of the backers aren't getting those encounters, as was noted.

Some might note that having a disparity between the KS versions (plus SG's) versus the DF Web Store versions (minus SG's) could be a problem both for tracking and sales, but I don't see why they could be rolled into the latter version as appropriate, if they had specific pieces in mind for specific Encounters. The KS's are generally a bit of a discount against buying afterwards, at least whenever I've priced things out. If that change added a piece or two that is 'supposed' to be there, and the price increased accordingly, I can't see why it'd be a problem.

All told, I think the point made about feeling like some elements were 'stripped out', sort of like elements of a game being cut and repackaged as 'DLC', can be frustrating. If there are pieces that are explicitly designed to be within a set, I think they should just be in the set from the start. Let the Stretch Goal list act as a way to provide little boosts for all of the backers. "But what about backers who would get like 10 sets of SG's?" some might also point out. That could be trickier, but would depend upon the particular SG pieces. Honestly, I really liked the way they did it in KS1 and 2, where we ended up getting 'a taste' of a wide variety of sets, many of which were available in greater numbers as add ons. So if I wanted piles of cracked crevasses, I could buy them, but even just getting 2 sets from KS2, I got a few bits to augment builds in some really fun ways.

For those who are still reading this missive, I am of course not trying to second guess, berate, or otherwise tell Dwarven Forge their business. As noted previously, this is a thread about feedback, so having caught up on a few pages since I last came through here, I thought I'd build upon some of the thoughts I've seen presented, and the (snipped) exchange above got some ideas rolling. They've already said that they intend to adjust how the Encounters and pieces will be bundled, and I do have faith that'll be fun to see and explore, but I also appreciate that there is an interest in critique and feedback. Nothing is perfect, and the more ideas we share, the more likely we can find better ways to do things, together, as a community of fans and the company that produces awesome stuff. :-)

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:35 am

We get the SG gripe now and have to agree that unless you were getting a DoD then a number of SGs had no impact.

We backed a few encounters so a lot of SGs had no impact. So a simpler SG distribution across all encounters would be preferable with the bigger ones getting more.

Complexity tends to mean flexibility and that we like. Also the encounter system showed off the basic product really well - here is what you can build :)

But if the like this or any other style of KS presentation is down to how you approach the KS:
Is it to get the maximum for your money?
Is it to get the bling you need to compliment your existing DF?
Is it to get cool stuff you can put on your table?
Is it to get exactly what you need to build your vision?

There are obviously more influences and some of those above will also be a secondary consideration to your main approach.

So depending on why your backing a KS will effect how you want the product presented and broken down.

In KSIII we were mostly getting as much value for money spent
In KSIV we wanted what we needed to build the castle we wanted
In KSV we wanted cool stuff

Personally we would not mind a repeat of the KSV style (SGs apart) as for us a DF KS is an annual event more than just a KS its an experience and KSV was amazing - DF had learnt a lot from the previous KSers and to have 24 hour presence on the Comments page we thought was brilliant and made you realise how committed they were to the KS.
We are pretty certain that is why we spent so much on a dungeon we didn't want :shock:

Also 2 of the video livefeeds were on Friday or Saturday which meant us old worlders could take part and hear Nate's sound effects :)

As stated before we are confident that DF will keep most backers happy most of the time :)
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kodiakbear » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:28 am

The very first day of KS5 was a little depressing for me because I had expected a return to more simple times like KS1&2, but once I embraced the encounter system I enjoyed KS5. I know that the hard work of the spreadsheet makers cause me to give more of my money to DF by the end of the pledge manager. With out their hard work I would not have been able to see the advantage of my different options. In a nut shell if KS6 is just like KS5 and no spreadsheet gurus do their magic DF will sell less to me. So they need to make spreadsheet before the PM if no one in the community already has.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Vegomatic » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:41 am

I like complicated.
I actually enjoy trying to figure out how to get the pieces I "need" at the lowest cost and still get everything I "want."
If it isn't complicated I won't have to build a spreadsheet.
Who am I kidding? I will build a spreadsheet regardless of the complexity.
And then I buy as much of the stuff as I can afford.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by GODofwar » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:22 pm

Contrarian again.

I like the ocmplicated KS.

Yes, they are a pain in the 4PC.

Yes, they suck up time.

BUT THEY DO NOT SUCK UP MONEY. If KS6 has lots of variant stuff one can get in the bling sets, I will love it.



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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by unclebilly » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:39 pm

Kryzsko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:05 pm
Oh, and I wish this KS would be structured more like KS2 and less like KS5. KS5 was needlessly overly complicated. I know it brought in a more money but that had a lot to do with dungeon being by far the most popular environment in RPGs and that there were a LOT more options and stuff to buy than in KS 1&2.

I know DF is going for the KS5 encounter system again but I am just putting my vote in for the old system. I would like to get 2 or 3 sets (with stretch goals) and some add-ons. I don't want to use a spreadsheet to figure out how to most effectively get what I want without getting a ton of stuff I don't want.
I agree 100% I hope this one is not as complicated as IV and V where.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Kryzsko » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:17 pm

kitenerd wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:42 pm
I still like the idea of SG's revealing individual items in a larger set (Cavern Additions, Wicked Cavers, Cavern Dressings... whatever). Everyone would get 1, 2 or 3 copies depending on total $$$ pledged. The more money raised by the KS the bigger that "Set" becomes. Pricing for the set would be determined after the KS (when DF knew how many pieces it contained). That set would also be available in the PM and later at retail.

This way there is always something to look forward to and pledge more to achieve, because the final piece that is revealed and NOT achieved will not get made (until next KS, ever, who knows?). We all feel like we are getting something free (we kind of are but the economy of scale pays for the molds and part of our pledges subsidizes production) and DF creates another product sku incrementally throughout the KS.

Simple, Easy, Fair
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kitenerd » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:42 pm

I still like the idea of SG's revealing individual items in a larger set (Cavern Additions, Wicked Cavers, Cavern Dressings... whatever). Everyone would get 1, 2 or 3 copies depending on total $$$ pledged. The more money raised by the KS the bigger that "Set" becomes. Pricing for the set would be determined after the KS (when DF knew how many pieces it contained). That set would also be available in the PM and later at retail.

This way there is always something to look forward to and pledge more to achieve, because the final piece that is revealed and NOT achieved will not get made (until next KS, ever, who knows?). We all feel like we are getting something free (we kind of are but the economy of scale pays for the molds and part of our pledges subsidizes production) and DF creates another product sku incrementally throughout the KS.

Simple, Easy, Fair
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Kryzsko » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:18 pm

Talistran wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 pm
I totally agree with your points here Kryzsko.

Except for I will be buying big into KS6 IF it matches KS2, and I too have 10 sets... but I bought factory painted so it is easy to integrate IF they match paint jobs :)

My problem is that I would like a little more variety but I have never run into needing much more than what I have. I painted 7 sets (and all my add-ons) to look like standard caverns (same with 5 water sets) and then I painted 2 sets to look volcanic, I have 2 ice sets, and I still have one unpainted set that I think I will give an underdark paint scheme someday, and I have used them a lot and never run into a position of needing a bunch more. I painted my mountains to match my caverns so that everything can pull double duty and it all looks great together so at this point I just don't need much more. I might want more but I don't need more. :D
Last edited by Kryzsko on Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Kryzsko » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Oh, and I wish this KS would be structured more like KS2 and less like KS5. KS5 was needlessly overly complicated. I know it brought in a more money but that had a lot to do with dungeon being by far the most popular environment in RPGs and that there were a LOT more options and stuff to buy than in KS 1&2.

I know DF is going for the KS5 encounter system again but I am just putting my vote in for the old system. I would like to get 2 or 3 sets (with stretch goals) and some add-ons. I don't want to use a spreadsheet to figure out how to most effectively get what I want without getting a ton of stuff I don't want.

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