Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

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nielsene
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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by nielsene » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:53 pm

The 'build encounters out of well-composed-packs' also has the benefit of making the 'Essential' style pledge tiers very easy to create.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Law » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:41 am

Another issue with “basic needs” that I’ve been thinking about is - well, what do you “need” for this? In my mind, that comes up when you want something big - obviously very few pieces are “needed” if you’re doing something small. So the big question for me is: what is the advantage of a larger cavern? And there are (roughly) two ways to think of “larger” - there’s “bigger room” and there’s “more rooms.”

My sense is that even with all the off-grid and crazy build options, we still only have a limited number of wall and corner designs. Past a certain point, (1) all rooms are gonna look the same, at least close up (because the basic wall and corners, whether you’re using normal walls or trifecta walls or crooked caverns etc.) are going to repeat; and (2) all parts of a larger single room are gonna look the same close up (ditto). Basically, “large” inevitably means “what you just saw over there, but over here now.”

That means that there are basically three reasons to do a large layout:

1) Hey, some people like large layouts. A huge sprawling cavern complex can look cool.

2) For gaming purposes, although here I think for all practical purposes you’re not gonna need more than a 2’x3’ layout for most gaming sessions as it takes HOURS to go through this stuff, esp if combat is involved. But, sure, If you have tons of encounters planned and want a big cavern for a game, sure.

3). Using the encounter model - making some bling the focus of attention in each room. If you want one space to have a crystal lode, and one space to lead to the Underdark, and one space to have a rise that leads to a higher level, etc., and you don’t want that all crammed in a tiny space - you’ll need a lot. And yeah the corners and walls surrounding the focal point will repeat - and yeah you could maybe just do each of those one at a time with fewer bread and butter pieces - but sure, just like with the DoD, you may want to have this encounter model, where each area is centered around something unique but is comprised of a lot of repeated elements.

So - tl;dr - whether you have “enough” basic pieces depends IMO on why you might want more. I don’t think any of the above is NECESSARY. A large build can look cool from a distance, sure, but the cool details are repeating themselves so a small build looks just as cool close up. A large build is useful for gaming, but probably not necessary unless you’re doing a marathon game and don’t want to take the time to break down and rebuild encounter areas. And a large build is great for staging spaces for different unique bling pieces, but as above query whether you need to build all of them simultaneously.

None of this is new info, the DF team laid all this out in the reasoning behind the encounter core sets and “adventure pack” stuff. But I think all of it bears on this issue of how much “basic” pieces one needs.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by unclebilly » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:47 am

I just wish DF would go back to here is a set of A,B,C pieces and stop with their premade encounters. I was much happier with the way you could buy sets in KS 1-3. Base sets with add-ons. Each KS has gotten more expensive and confusing. I think that makes it harder for new people that want to get in on it. Where the older Doofers that have some stuff kinda know what we may want I could see where a new person would be totally lost.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by subtalon » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:09 am

unclebilly wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:47 am
I just wish DF would go back to here is a set of A,B,C pieces and stop with their premade encounters. I was much happier with the way you could buy sets in KS 1-3. Base sets with add-ons. Each KS has gotten more expensive and confusing. I think that makes it harder for new people that want to get in on it. Where the older Doofers that have some stuff kinda know what we may want I could see where a new person would be totally lost.
I was actually the opposite. For me I saw a set of pieces and had no idea what I could do with them. Once encounters showed up in DoD, for whatever reason it clicked. And I've been buying way to much DF ever since. Enough so I may need to start an anonymous support group, unless that's what the forums are.

That said, now that I'm fully into DF, I would like as an option those straight forward pledges 10 straight walls, 10 corners, 10 floors, etc. I think we get that to some degree with the starter dungeon/cave but it has other pieces I won't used as much because I may already have them in other encounters.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by kitenerd » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:41 pm

I have said it 1,000 times and i will say it again:

Base sets make the most sense
Encounters generate the most sales

Build the encounters out of base sets plus packs...

Encounter 6 "Dueregar Ambush" is made up of 2 Base Cavern Packs, 1 Cavern Passage Set and 1 Passage Transition Pack

Encounter 7 "Alchemist Laboratory" is made up of 1 Base Cavern Pack and 1 Alchemist Accessories set

People who want to build them one at a time buy 5 packs and people who want the big layout buy 6, getting an extra Base set so they can build both encounters at once. Offer two top tiers one that lets you build each encounter individually and one that lets you build the whole layout.

Obviously every Encounter will not use EVERY piece in a set, but you include a graphic of the "extra leftover parts" - no one ever minded getting MORE than they planned on!


This is SOOO much simpler from a packaging, fulfillment and future inventory management standpoint that i fail to understand why it is not being done... It also enables future KS's that add only a limited number of items to "reissue/resell" previously released stock with different features and bling (like the Pathfinder encounters). They are doing this with Build of the Month and i think it is brilliant (i wonder if it generating significant sales?).

Sometimes what seems obvious is actually a good idea.
"Miniatures?, sure sign of a petty mind!" - 'The Women' 1939

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by kitenerd » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:44 pm

subtalon wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:09 am
unclebilly wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:47 am
I just wish DF would go back to here is a set of A,B,C pieces and stop with their premade encounters. I was much happier with the way you could buy sets in KS 1-3. Base sets with add-ons. Each KS has gotten more expensive and confusing. I think that makes it harder for new people that want to get in on it. Where the older Doofers that have some stuff kinda know what we may want I could see where a new person would be totally lost.
I was actually the opposite. For me I saw a set of pieces and had no idea what I could do with them. Once encounters showed up in DoD, for whatever reason it clicked. And I've been buying way to much DF ever since. Enough so I may need to start an anonymous support group, unless that's what the forums are.

That said, now that I'm fully into DF, I would like as an option those straight forward pledges 10 straight walls, 10 corners, 10 floors, etc. I think we get that to some degree with the starter dungeon/cave but it has other pieces I won't used as much because I may already have them in other encounters.
In KS 1 we begged for (and got) multiple layouts of each pledge tier - it really helped those of us with NO DF comprehend what was possible with any given set of pieces. That being said those bare rooms were not nearly as seductive as the beautifully integrated encounters that basically tell the story themselves. Encounters capture the audience and create desire FAR better than 12 walls, 8 corners and 10 floors.
"Miniatures?, sure sign of a petty mind!" - 'The Women' 1939

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Talistran » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:55 pm

kitenerd wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:41 pm
I have said it 1,000 times and i will say it again:

Base sets make the most sense
Encounters generate the most sales

Build the encounters out of base sets plus packs...

Encounter 6 "Dueregar Ambush" is made up of 2 Base Cavern Packs, 1 Cavern Passage Set and 1 Passage Transition Pack

Encounter 7 "Alchemist Laboratory" is made up of 1 Base Cavern Pack and 1 Alchemist Accessories set

People who want to build them one at a time buy 5 packs and people who want the big layout buy 6, getting an extra Base set so they can build both encounters at once. Offer two top tiers one that lets you build each encounter individually and one that lets you build the whole layout.

Obviously every Encounter will not use EVERY piece in a set, but you include a graphic of the "extra leftover parts" - no one ever minded getting MORE than they planned on!


This is SOOO much simpler from a packaging, fulfillment and future inventory management standpoint that i fail to understand why it is not being done... It also enables future KS's that add only a limited number of items to "reissue/resell" previously released stock with different features and bling (like the Pathfinder encounters). They are doing this with Build of the Month and i think it is brilliant (i wonder if it generating significant sales?).

Sometimes what seems obvious is actually a good idea.
Yep. I think we've both been beating this drum for a long time. It solves ALL the problems and creates none.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by Law » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:27 pm

I prefer simple as well. To be fair, they DID offer starter packs that basically ARE simple - there's no real need to get anything more than those if you want basic bread and butter pieces.

But I do LIKE the bling, I just wish it weren't quite SO modular. I'd sacrifice the flexibility that comes with deciding exactly where and how I'll go off-grid for a simple 4x4 or 6x6 piece that simply goes off grid and then comes back on all at once. Then I don't have to dig around for a 2x4 piece to match the 1x2 piece I just used that is the symmetrical opposite of this other 4x2 piece . . .

I like the builds you can make, but it's SO much harder. With the basic pieces, I can dig into a bin of just walls and pull out wall. EVen with LED and magnetic walls, it's not too hard to find what I need. But when walls and floors are 1" or 2" or 4" or 6", there aren't enough for a whole bin, so I have to go digging around. With DoD (and to some extent Castles, and even cities if we're talking about sidewalk pieces), I have to find 1x1 or 1x2 or 2x2 or 2x4 or 4x4 . . . it just gets crazy. The little ones get buried in a bin and it takes forever to find what I need. .. .

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by nielsene » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:40 pm

100% what kitenerd says.

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Re: Did Caverns Deep really have the basic needs?

Post by GardenDM » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:39 pm

kitenerd wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:41 pm
I have said it 1,000 times and i will say it again:

Base sets make the most sense
Encounters generate the most sales

Build the encounters out of base sets plus packs...

Encounter 6 "Dueregar Ambush" is made up of 2 Base Cavern Packs, 1 Cavern Passage Set and 1 Passage Transition Pack

Encounter 7 "Alchemist Laboratory" is made up of 1 Base Cavern Pack and 1 Alchemist Accessories set

People who want to build them one at a time buy 5 packs and people who want the big layout buy 6, getting an extra Base set so they can build both encounters at once. Offer two top tiers one that lets you build each encounter individually and one that lets you build the whole layout.

Obviously every Encounter will not use EVERY piece in a set, but you include a graphic of the "extra leftover parts" - no one ever minded getting MORE than they planned on!


This is SOOO much simpler from a packaging, fulfillment and future inventory management standpoint that i fail to understand why it is not being done... It also enables future KS's that add only a limited number of items to "reissue/resell" previously released stock with different features and bling (like the Pathfinder encounters). They are doing this with Build of the Month and i think it is brilliant (i wonder if it generating significant sales?).

Sometimes what seems obvious is actually a good idea.
:idea: :!:
I want this!

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